What's a good starting point for camber/caster setting?

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jcolman

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I have a 72 Duster running 235/40/18 tires in the front. Manual steering. The car likes to "wander" at bit at higher speeds. I have aftermarket tublar upper control arms so adjusting the camber "should" be easier. What's a good number to start with?

Thanks!
 
This could be tough to answer because of the type of driving you plan on doing.
Camber about 0 to +1/8 and Caster +3 to +4 if you can dial it in that much.
Some guys like to go -1/4 on Camber and as much Caster as the car will allow with the available adjustment.
That would be for the road course high speed handling.
Toe in 1/16'' to 1/8'' total.
I assume you have gauges to set the car up ?
 
This could be tough to answer because of the type of driving you plan on doing.
Camber about 0 to +1/8 and Caster +3 to +4 if you can dial it in that much.
Some guys like to go -1/4 on Camber and as much Caster as the car will allow with the available adjustment.
That would be for the road course high speed handling.
Toe in 1/16'' to 1/8'' total.
Thanks! Most of my driving is around town but I do like to take it on the interstate at times. This isn't a daily driver. No track driving.
 
You should not be running ANY positive camber on modern radial tires. Zero to any small negative number, more negative for modified and lowered cars (as the chart shows). The problem with caster is getting more than 2 to 2.5 degrees out of the stock suspension. To get anywhere near 4 degrees you need the Moog offset upper bushings, and probably not even then. I managed to get about 3.25 degrees.
 
-.5 camber, as much caster as you can get and 1/16 to maybe 1/8 total toe.
 
Yaknow, this might be a case of not the right backspace. But not for the reason you might think. From the factory these cars are set up with an SAI (steering axis inclination) that produces a particular scrub radius, and using a Zero-offset 5 or 5.5 inch wheel, that when set up with the correct height tire, the center of the tire intersects the road at the same point that the an imaginary line drawn thru the upper and lower BJs does; and the steering is all cuddely and sweet.
But, along comes a HotRodder and installs a taller than factory tire with a wrong-way off-set rim and I can tell you that many alignments later, I took those wheel assemblies off, and went back to the drawing board.
Now; at one time, I was running a 245/50-15 that maths to 24.6 tall compared to yours that maths to 25.4 , compared to the factory tire that mightabin 24.5ish. So we, especially you, are screwed right from the get-go. Even with a Zero-offset wheel, the points will not intersect properly. My wheel had a positive offset with less backspace than frontspace, so this puts the center of my wheel outboard of the theoretical point. It's only a small amount and in theory it should not bother.
However, as the chassis moves up and down, the angles of the control arms change relative to the ground, and that changes the SAI, which changes the scrub radius and if the center of your tire is not where it is supposed to be to start with, this produces a nervousness that cannot be corrected with any alignment ,period.
Now if you couple that with the low tire pressure I have to run to keep the treads flat to the road, another phenomenon happens. The edges of the tire, like to climb up the sides of any "wagon ruts", you know, the low spots on the hiway created by heave cargo vehicles. And the track widths of those trucks is quite a bit wider than the 56 or so inches of my 68 Barracuda.
So down the road I go with a brand new well-adjusted front end, but the thing is twitchy as heck on anything but concrete. So when those stick tires wore out, I switched back to 235/60-14s on zero-offset wheels, and all my problems disappeared. Well they did after I experimented with front ride-height, to get the best scrub radius I could. Oh and my new tire pressure is 29psi , plus 5 over the other tires. So that puts a lil less pressure on the outside edges of the tires and the climbing is much reduced.
The thing is, that at the time I was figuring all this out, I was an alignment tech, and had free use of the machine after hours. So when I said many alignments later, I really meant many-many. Twenty-nine to be exact, including fixing my bump-steer which some guys don' think worth doing.
My alignment ended up at 3.5 caster at negative .5 camber. Toe-in could not be set on the machine cuz no matter where I set it to, static, on the road it was wrong. So I took my tools on the road and set it on the fly. Afterwards, I put it back on the rack and centered the steering wheel without changing the toe, but that was nearly two decades ago and it has been changed many times since. Bottom-line is IDK what the toes is or was .
So IDK, maybe your Scrub radius is fine, and maybe it's just bump-steer.
Or maybe another 5psi in the tires will cure it....... lol
 
Yaknow, this might be a case of not the right backspace. But not for the reason you might think. From the factory these cars are set up with an SAI (steering axis inclination) that produces a particular scrub radius, and using a Zero-offset 5 or 5.5 inch wheel, that when set up with the correct height tire, the center of the tire intersects the road at the same point that the an imaginary line drawn thru the upper and lower BJs does; and the steering is all cuddely and sweet.
But, along comes a HotRodder and installs a taller than factory tire with a wrong-way off-set rim and I can tell you that many alignments later, I took those wheel assemblies off, and went back to the drawing board.
Now; at one time, I was running a 245/50-15 that maths to 24.6 tall compared to yours that maths to 25.4 , compared to the factory tire that mightabin 24.5ish. So we, especially you, are screwed right from the get-go. Even with a Zero-offset wheel, the points will not intersect properly. My wheel had a positive offset with less backspace than frontspace, so this puts the center of my wheel outboard of the theoretical point. It's only a small amount and in theory it should not bother.
However, as the chassis moves up and down, the angles of the control arms change relative to the ground, and that changes the SAI, which changes the scrub radius and if the center of your tire is not where it is supposed to be to start with, this produces a nervousness that cannot be corrected with any alignment ,period.
Now if you couple that with the low tire pressure I have to run to keep the treads flat to the road, another phenomenon happens. The edges of the tire, like to climb up the sides of any "wagon ruts", you know, the low spots on the hiway created by heave cargo vehicles. And the track widths of those trucks is quite a bit wider than the 56 or so inches of my 68 Barracuda.
So down the road I go with a brand new well-adjusted front end, but the thing is twitchy as heck on anything but concrete. So when those stick tires wore out, I switched back to 235/60-14s on zero-offset wheels, and all my problems disappeared. Well they did after I experimented with front ride-height, to get the best scrub radius I could. Oh and my new tire pressure is 29psi , plus 5 over the other tires. So that puts a lil less pressure on the outside edges of the tires and the climbing is much reduced.
The thing is, that at the time I was figuring all this out, I was an alignment tech, and had free use of the machine after hours. So when I said many alignments later, I really meant many-many. Twenty-nine to be exact, including fixing my bump-steer which some guys don' think worth doing.
My alignment ended up at 3.5 caster at negative .5 camber. Toe-in could not be set on the machine cuz no matter where I set it to, static, on the road it was wrong. So I took my tools on the road and set it on the fly. Afterwards, I put it back on the rack and centered the steering wheel without changing the toe, but that was nearly two decades ago and it has been changed many times since. Bottom-line is IDK what the toes is or was .
So IDK, maybe your Scrub radius is fine, and maybe it's just bump-steer.
Or maybe another 5psi in the tires will cure it....... lol
AJ, since increasing caster increases the stiffness in steering (largely overcome by power steering); is there an issue with running 3.5 caster and manual steering? We want high speed stability, but is there a downside?
 
I have a 72 Duster running 235/40/18 tires in the front. Manual steering. The car likes to "wander" at bit at higher speeds. I have aftermarket tublar upper control arms so adjusting the camber "should" be easier. What's a good number to start with?

Thanks!

-.5° camber, as much + caster as you can get and 1/16" toe if all your suspension components are relatively new, otherwise between 1/16" and 1/8" is fine.

With tubular, non adjustable UCA's you should be able to get close to +5° of caster, do it and don't worry about it. Your 235/40/18's aren't super wide so it should be fine. I run 275/35/18's with 16:1 manual steering and +6.5° of caster and I do daily drive my car. Above 10-15mph it's no big deal at all. Below that requires some more effort, but unless you're going to be parallel parking it all the time it's not a big deal. But most cars will need adjustable UCA's to get that much caster, the non-adjustable tubular UCA's are usually good for somewhere between +4° to +5° depending on the manufacturer and the cars particular set up.


AJ, since increasing caster increases the stiffness in steering (largely overcome by power steering); is there an issue with running 3.5 caster and manual steering? We want high speed stability, but is there a downside?

+3.5° caster isn't that much, as I said above, I run +6.5° on my car with 16:1 manual steering. Most modern cars run upwards of +8° with unequal A-arm set ups.

There are trade offs. Increasing the amount of positive caster absolutely improves stability, especially at higher speeds. The downside is that the more stable you make something the more it resists change, in this case the steering effort can go up.

Positive caster does a few different things. By leaning the steering knuckle back it projects the steering axis forward, which creates stability. Same as fork angle on a bicycle. When you turn the car, it puts more camber on the wheels as you turn. This is good for handling (up to a point). The tipping of the wheels also creates a re-centering force, so, the car wants to straighten out. This helps the cars stability on corner exits, and even in daily driving with manual steering the return to center effect makes the car easier to handle.

The downside is that the more caster you add, the more the wheels tip on steering inputs. This can cause a jacking effect, tipping the wheel onto its corner more and actually raising the car. It tends to add pressure to the outside rear wheel, which when done right can add to the vehicle turn in and help the car rotate a little. When overdone it makes the car oversteer, and the jacking effect can actually unsettle the suspension if you go too far. And the more the tires camber, the more the car lifts, and all of that force translates into more steering effort.

I've run everything from +3.5° caster all the way up to +8° on my Duster with 275/35/18's up front. At +3.5° the wide front tires go where THEY want to go, following ruts and things in the road because of their wide contact patch. At +8° the steering effort is dramatically heightened, and the jacking effect is very substantial. On my car at least I found that +6° to +6.5° was the "sweet spot", below that the wide front tires start to take over, and above that the steering effort really starts to climb rapidly. I actually didn't notice much steering effort change from around +5° up to +6.5°, but the stability is much better.

With narrower front tires you likely would get more of the benefits at a lower + caster number, as you would have less of a tracking effect from the wide tires.
 
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