So if you've read through my thread, I've had problem after problem building this car. This is my next big problem. Leaking head gaskets. Block is a 340 block, bored/stroked to 417, W2 heads, and the block is o-ringed. I don't have the brand of head gaskets at the moment that were used but the engine builder used the same ones that were in it when I bought it. Ideally, we would have liked to get rid of the o-ringed block altogether due to the decrease in compression and I should have. But since early on, the head gaskets leaked down the side of the block and I would literally have coolant drips on the headers down below. The builder took the engine out, re-torqued the heads, and all was fine for one track day and a couple hundred miles. What got my attention was some other bad engine oil leak I saw a couple weeks ago that I can't seem to locate. While looking for the leak, that's when I saw the coolant again. Same problem as before. What kills me is the fact that I'm going to have to probably pull the engine a second time since built, with only 250 miles on the damn thing. :banghead: So my options right now are to [1] pull the engine, re-torque the heads again, and probably end up with the same problem by the end of the year [2] pull the engine, change to a different kind of head gasket [3] pull the engine, change the block, and get rid of the o-rings altogether [4] pull and disassemble motor, remove or machine the o-rings off the block??? I don't know if that's even feasible to remove the o-rings and safely run the motor leaving the grooves in the block. Could you remove the rings and fill the grooves with weld or something? I'm at a loss at the moment as to what to do. Is it ok to drive the car with the gaskets leaking? What gaskets/procedures have you guys used to get a good seal on a setup like this? I'm really getting tired of this car and am having thoughts to just cut my losses and move on with life. This car has caused me more mental and financial stress than I care to handle and I'm about done with it. I really hope there's a decent solution out there.
Who here runs an O-Ringed block? Leaking head gasket problem!
- Thread starter clinteg
- Start date
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vitamindart
Well-Known Member
I think it really depends on where the o-ring groove is in relation to the sealing ring of the standard style head gasket you want or decide to run. did they deck the block when they rebuilt it? could the o ring groove be to shallow causing the issue?
dwire67
Well-Known Member
I always thought you had to run copper head gaskets with a O ringed block.
madscientist
Banned
Several things.
Unless you have a certain type of Fel-Pro gasket and you have o-rings, the gasket must always be copper.
2. I know it's done all the time (and no matter how many times it's done this way it's still WRONG) but NEVER EVER run just an o-ring in the block. There should be a groove machined into the head (I always put the wire in the head) and another groove put into the block (aka receiver groove). This gives the displaced copper somewhere to go. If you didn't add the receiver groove they will never seal.
3. How much compression? Unless you are over 12.5:1 and refuse to use studs there in no need for o-rings.
You have a fairly long post without much info.
If the original install was done correctly (both grooves, dead soft copper gaskets, correct sealer on the gasket) and you are still fighting water leaks that use a good block sealer and live with it.
You can take the engine apart and add the receiver grooves if you don't have them, or, just machine the block down and eliminate the grooves. Then order a Cometic gasket that is thicker by the amount that you milled off (for example, if you have a .039 gasket and machine .035 off the deck to get rid of the grooves order an .080 gasket).
Unless you have a certain type of Fel-Pro gasket and you have o-rings, the gasket must always be copper.
2. I know it's done all the time (and no matter how many times it's done this way it's still WRONG) but NEVER EVER run just an o-ring in the block. There should be a groove machined into the head (I always put the wire in the head) and another groove put into the block (aka receiver groove). This gives the displaced copper somewhere to go. If you didn't add the receiver groove they will never seal.
3. How much compression? Unless you are over 12.5:1 and refuse to use studs there in no need for o-rings.
You have a fairly long post without much info.
If the original install was done correctly (both grooves, dead soft copper gaskets, correct sealer on the gasket) and you are still fighting water leaks that use a good block sealer and live with it.
You can take the engine apart and add the receiver grooves if you don't have them, or, just machine the block down and eliminate the grooves. Then order a Cometic gasket that is thicker by the amount that you milled off (for example, if you have a .039 gasket and machine .035 off the deck to get rid of the grooves order an .080 gasket).
You are right. I do not have a lot of info for you guys yet. I guess I was more looking for what people do with these blocks and get successful sealing. I will get my receipt book out when I get home and find the part number for teh gaskets. The reason the block is o-ringed is because it was 14:1 CR. So yes it probably needed it. We brought it down to 11:1 so I can run 91 octane, no longer needing the o-rings. But the o-rings were there and nothing to do about it. The heads are NOT machined with a matching groove. It does have ARP head studs. Here are pictures of the engine apart.
The engine builder used the same gasket as before since it did not leak when I bought it. But he also said "I used the same gasket part number that was used before. That gasket is not really designed to be used with o-rings in the deck of the block." I would imagine it's copper but I really don't know. The engine is one thing I really didn't get my hands into. He believes that the o-rings are not allowing the gasket to see the clamp down force that it needs to seal the coolant passeageways. I honestly don't like the idea of milling the block down. The pistons are custom made and they are zero decked in the block. I don't know that ending up with an out-of-the hole piston is ideal, but maybe that's an option.
madscientist
Banned
You can pull the o-rings out and use a two part filler in the grooves. Make sure the grooves are clean and dry. Fill them with the 2 part and let it dry. Run a long board over the decks to make sure all the filler is flush and run it. Done it many times. No need to deck it, if it's flat.
Never did understand why guys try to run o-rings without receiver grooves.
Never did understand why guys try to run anything but copper gaskets with o-rings. It's not new technology.
FWIW I have used JB weld to fill the grooves, as well as Moroso and some stuff I get from Brownells.
Never did understand why guys try to run o-rings without receiver grooves.
Never did understand why guys try to run anything but copper gaskets with o-rings. It's not new technology.
FWIW I have used JB weld to fill the grooves, as well as Moroso and some stuff I get from Brownells.
Yeah I really don't know why people do it either after reading about it and it being very clear that practically everyone runs a copper gasket when doing this. This is one of the MANY problems I have encountered that the previous owner had done to the car and engine. My builder fixed a bunch of issues the engine had. The old head gaskets didn't seem to have any issues. He probably thought don't fix it if it ain't broken so, understandably, he put in a new set of the same part number gaskets on. But now I'm stuck with the problem. If I can verify that it's not leaking into the cylinders, I think I'm just going to run it until it gets bad enough that it needs attention. I just changed the oil and it was very clean. The valve covers don't have any milkyness under them at all. So that is promising.
dwire67
Well-Known Member
You could run copper O rings and run a MLS gasket or just go back to steel O rings and copper gaskets
moper
Well-Known Member
vitamindart
Well-Known Member
I have run 14+ to 1 with copper head gaskets and Just the block grooved without an issue. as long as the o-ring groove is the right depth there will not be an issue. when I ran that set up I also would coat the gasket with spray copper. torque the bolts run the engine and re-torque.
Terry Bride
New Member
In my experience, the only time I have seen a copper head gasket not leak water is in a blown alcohol set up with no water to leak!
I have dealt with this on a few occasions. I found a solid strand copper wire slightly larger in diameter than the o-ring groove and after removing the steel wire, I tapped the copper wire into the groove. I then resurfaced the deck and used an MLS head gasket. I've done two small block Ford blocks and an early set of hemi heads this way, all have sealed up just fine!
I have dealt with this on a few occasions. I found a solid strand copper wire slightly larger in diameter than the o-ring groove and after removing the steel wire, I tapped the copper wire into the groove. I then resurfaced the deck and used an MLS head gasket. I've done two small block Ford blocks and an early set of hemi heads this way, all have sealed up just fine!
moper
Well-Known Member
Granted this was with Fords - but we always had the reciever grooves cut into the heads.
Update on this. I used a product called Steel Seal over the weekend. It's guaranteed to seal your head gasket or your money back. Although very expensive ($110), it was a cheaper option than pulling the engine back out again so I gave it a shot. It says to run the engine at 1000 rpms for one hour! I wasn't about to let it sit there and idle for an hour so I let it idle for about 15 or 20 minutes and drove the car for another 45 minutes around town. I believe that they instruct this way if you actually have a blown head gasket and they don't want you to have much cylinder pressure while the stuff is trying to work. Mine was more or less coolant seeping from a coolant passage so I didn't think RPM's would have any negative affect on the sealant. I even took her up to 6000 rpm at one point (not running it hard). Took it home, checked for coolant leaks, NO LEAKS! Flushed the system and put antifreeze back in and on I went. I really hope it holds up. Someone here at work used it in a car that actually did have a blown head gasket and they said it's been running for 6 years no problems. Maybe I can get as lucky.
Bakerlite
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I've run O rings with cheap gaskets.. You don't need a "certain" gasket. The trick is that the O ring HAS to sit behind the fire ring. I've also only grooved just the block like 1000's of others without issue,so I don't see where grooving both comes into play unless under the most extreme of circumstances, plus you don't need to fill in the block when you remove the rings, why would you??? If the fire ring is in front of the O ring, then whats going to leak through the groove???
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