Why small bolt pattern?

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Sorry Rob, twelveteen isn't a number, but elevendy is!!! AND, it's a magic number!!!
 
lol. Yall are enough to drive somebody to drink. Some more.
 
Oklacarcollecto said:
Reading that Moron post I was already wondering about if you were still drinking from last night.
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Naw. I'm wrong on a minute by minute basis......but when I know I am RIGHT and some forum genius expert claims otherwise, it ruffles me all up. Or can you tell?
 
...but at a feeble attempt to try and get back on track. "MY" opinion on why the small bolt pattern is much the same as what all has been said. Maybe less material and less cost. I think "they" probably looked at the new A body's small size, light weight and close quarters and that was one thing they could change and "make smaller". Most any time you make something smaller in production, it reduces cost. The fact that the A bodies had really small diameter 13" wheels meant that a larger bolt circle would crowd the wheel. Pick a reason. In the end they did it because that's how they did it.
 
RustyRatRod said:
For all you "experts". READ under DESIGN.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lug_nut

And I quote:

"The lug's taper is normally 60 degrees (although 45 is common for wheels designed for racing applications), and is designed to center the wheel accurately on the axle, AND TO REDUCE THE TENDENCY FOR THE NUT TO LOOSEN, due to fretting induced precession, as the car is driven."


Lemmie tell you something, and then I am OUT of this ridiculous thread of complete and total misinformation. I changed my first tire in 1973. I was eight. By the time I was 19 I was an alignment man at a local tire store. I have been to so many different seminars through the years regarding tire/wheel/lugnut safety that it ran out of my ears. Some of yall come on here with so much BULLSHIT spewing out of your ignorant assed mouths and you have ZERO real world experience. You really oughtta stay on the couch with your bottle of lotion. You do no one any good with your argumentative attitude and know it all bullshit. Sorry, some of yall are good at makin yourselves sound smart, but you're just plain STUPID when you argue with FACTS.

Now, there's yall something to argue about for the next twelveteen pages......even though the FACTS have been presented. Morons.
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So, fretting-induced precession is what happens if you don't "Center the wheel on the stud", as I said...

But by your logic that the taper seat being what holds nuts on, then finger tight should be good enough. Right? ;-)

jos51700 said:
The conical seat serves more to locate the wheel and distribute the load than it does to hold the nut in.
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I should have clarified, I'll give you that: The conical seat centers the wheel on the stud. The register centers the wheel on the hub.

I'll be in Augusta 9/13 through 9/15. I'm more than happy to discuss with you over a friendly beer.

And I hope you're not implying that I have no real-world experience. I'm a disable mechanic as well, with scars to back it up. Odds are good I've sat through the same chassis-service seminars you have.

-John
 
Wrong. Fretting induced precession is what the conical shape of the lug nut and the lug nut hole STOPS. FIP is the action of the rotating wheel wanting to loosen the lug nuts. The conical seats KEEP that from happening.......hence as DEL first said and I later reiterated, lug nuts coming loose from FIP on a car is bullshit, because the conical seats keep it from happening. How many times do I have to say it for you? It was spelled out in black and white in the link I posted. It even had a link defining FIP. A chimp could have understood it, yet somehow you missed it. You are simply wrong. Admit it and move on.

Oh and thanks for the invite. I love me some beer. Augusta is a little far for me right now with our finances like they are......however if you get by Macon any time soon, the beer's on me. We might can even get Frankie to join us. lol
 
Think: Trucks. The old Jeep and truck rims still sought a 5-lug pattern but they spread the studs out even further. Why? Because trucks and jeeps see higher loads. Your GVWR isn't increasing dramatically, but you are side-loading the wheels more, and you're more likely to push the load rating of the wheels and tires to the max.
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The 5 on 4.5" was clearly strong enough for trucks! Proof? It was used into the 80's! (And not just by Dodge...Fords also used it on vans & RWD trucks, though I think 4x4's used a larger circle.)

For Jeeps (and 4x4's in general): one reason they tended to use larger bolt circles is simple--the front axle needs room to put a locking hub!

Also note: some trucks used LH thread wheel lugs until at least the late 1990's!
 
Jarlaxle said:
The 5 on 4.5" was clearly strong enough for trucks! Proof? It was used into the 80's! (And not just by Dodge...Fords also used it on vans & RWD trucks, though I think 4x4's used a larger circle.)

For Jeeps (and 4x4's in general): one reason they tended to use larger bolt circles is simple--the front axle needs room to put a locking hub!

Also note: some trucks used LH thread wheel lugs until at least the late 1990's!
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Until the metric change over in 1997 Ford's choice of wheels on their half ton trucks were 5 on 5.5" since the 50s with the exemption of some of the 1980, 1981 and 1982 F-100s but even in those years the F-150 used the 5 on 5.5". Starting with the body change in 1975 Ford half ton vans also went with the 5 on 5.5" wheel pattern through 2006. The same wheel pattern were used on the 1/2 Ford 4x4s during this period.

Dodge also made a change over to the 5 on 5.5" wheels on the half ton trucks somewhere in the early 80s.
 
They used the 5 on 4 for the same reason they used the 6 on 4.5 on the Dakota R/T, it was a mistake.
 
I was waiting for the 6 lug Dakota comment, now that did NOT make any sense when full size trucks used 5 lugs.

A-body were small and light vehicles. they were made in large quantities so they did not have to share with other vehicle platforms. I figure 5 lugs on a 4 inch pattern is what was needed. As mentioned they had small hubs due to 9" brakes and 13" wheels.

The left hand thread stuff goes back a long time probably before cars were around. It does make sense but just isn't needed anymore.

When the Shelby Charger was raced with some informal factory support at the showroom stock car race at Nelson Ledges Ohio, I think it was around 1983,!they had a problem with broken wheel studs. The next model year a switch to five lugs was put into production. But I don't think it was needed. At the race the lug nuts were run on with an impact. when they started to break studs, a torque wrench was used after the nuts were installed which is kinda dumb as this just made sure the torque was at least what the setting. But the actual torque was probably a lot higher and on components that were very hot. I think at the race the studs were over torqued. I never heard of another broken stud with only four lugs even on other cars that were raced.
 
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