Won't Fire - Need Help!

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I will give a plug for action machine in shoreline wa
!!
Those guys Rock !!!
Replaced all the intake valves did a 5 way grind checked everything and put it back together in a day they only charged me 95 dollars .
I know for a fact that was a gift !!!
The car came from my Dad and I was trying to get it back together to drive to his memorial . We broke the cam in at 2:30 in the morning .
I had not drove the car in over 3 years .
Pulled it out washed it and drove it at by noon that day !!

My Dad would have smiled!!!!
I sure miss him !! But he lives on and so do the memories !!
Every time I drive my car I think of him !!
See you in Heaven !!
John Thomas McAdams
11-10-48 to 5-7-2013
Gone never forgotten !!
 
One problem I had on another motor was the ignition switch ?
Have you checked that ?
 
I bought a '69 Camaro from a buddy years ago that he couldn't get to run. Symptoms were similar to yours. The problem turned out to be in a mis-marked timing chain set that threw the relationship off between the crank and the camshaft.
 
67Dart273 said:
CAM TIMING

Did this engine ever run with present cam, chain, sprocket set up or is this "new?"

Or does it have enough miles (over 80K) that the chain / sprockets might be worn?

Re--read what I posted earlier. I told you "up there" LOL how to check or at least get some idea of cam timing
Click to expand...

Nope. New rebuild, including cam, double roller timing chain/sprockets, lifters, and pistons.

Ahh... Okay.. Sorry, will check the cam timing next free time...

jimmer said:
I will give a plug for action machine in shoreline wa
!!
Those guys Rock !!!
Replaced all the intake valves did a 5 way grind checked everything and put it back together in a day they only charged me 95 dollars .
I know for a fact that was a gift !!!
The car came from my Dad and I was trying to get it back together to drive to his memorial . We broke the cam in at 2:30 in the morning .
I had not drove the car in over 3 years .
Pulled it out washed it and drove it at by noon that day !!

My Dad would have smiled!!!!
I sure miss him !! But he lives on and so do the memories !!
Every time I drive my car I think of him !!
See you in Heaven !!
John Thomas McAdams
11-10-48 to 5-7-2013
Gone never forgotten !!
Click to expand...

Nice that your car can provide those memories!

jimmer said:
One problem I had on another motor was the ignition switch ?
Have you checked that ?
Click to expand...

No, note sure how to check the ignition switch or what the symptoms would be... Initially, was cranking from the ignition switch and the motor would attempt to fire as I was letting off the key. Lately, since by myself, have been leaving key in on position and cracking via remote starter...

1967 'cuda said:
I bought a '69 Camaro from a buddy years ago that he couldn't get to run. Symptoms were similar to yours. The problem turned out to be in a mis-marked timing chain set that threw the relationship off between the crank and the camshaft.
Click to expand...

Timing chain and gear was new Comp Cams assembly, so hoping that's not the case. I'm guessing that's not it, but should verify when I check the Cam Timing....

Thanks all for the ideas! Sorry responses and verifications are slow, but been busy with family stuff and trying to log some car time while keeping the "Family Balance!" I'm sure you folks get it....
 
It has been almost 20 years since I had the problem?
If my memory is correct the car would start as I let off on the key ,
I had to replace the switch itself then it worked.
I think one way to test is check the volts when cranking and when letting of.
You might also check the voltage regulator and the coil .
Good luck !!!
 
matsucu06 said:
Nope. New rebuild, including cam, double roller timing chain/sprockets, lifters, and pistons.

Ahh... Okay.. Sorry, will check the cam timing next free time...

Timing chain and gear was new Comp Cams assembly, so hoping that's not the case. I'm guessing that's not it, but should verify when I check the Cam Timing....

FYI I had to return a Comp timing chain this spring when I built my 340 it was no where close when I degreed the cam.
Pulled an old still in the package certica 1991 MP timing set off the shelf and everything aligned great, the Comp was 8 degrees off.
Click to expand...
 
sireland67 said:
Pulled an old still in the package certica 1991 MP timing set off the shelf and everything aligned great, the Comp was 8 degrees off.
Click to expand...

But even that RAN. There was just a guy over on another forum who put together a Poly, using a three -key timing drive, and lined the marks up on THE KEY instead of the timing marks on the sprocket!!

Below, he posted a photo of the way the cam was installed (THIS IS WRONG)
 

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67Dart273 said:
But even that RAN. There was just a guy over on another forum who put together a Poly, using a three -key timing drive, and lined the marks up on THE KEY instead of the timing marks on the sprocket!!

Below, he posted a photo of the way the cam was installed (THIS IS WRONG)
Click to expand...

Really? That looks right to me with the dots lined up @ 6 and 12'0clock.

How should it look?
 
That is NOT correct. When the timing chain is properly aligned, the timing marks on the drive are aligned and the key is about 1-2 o'clock

Here are destructions from Cloyes

http://www.cloyes.com/Aftermarket/TechHelp/tabid/187/language/en-US/Default.aspx

This is a "3 keyway" drive, meaning one is "as factory straight up" on key is retard, and the other is advanced. There is a separate timing mark for each key. These multi - key sprockets are different for different brands. Cloyes uses an "O", a triangle and a square for the three designations. Some brands use "A" for advanced and "R" for retard. This drawing depicts "as factory."
 

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If you look carefully of this crop of the photo above, you can just make out the mark he SHOULD be using to the left of the key. The terrible black arrow I drew is trying to point to it
 

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67Dart273 said:
If you look carefully of this crop of the photo above, you can just make out the mark he SHOULD be using to the left of the key. The terrible black arrow I drew is trying to point to it
Click to expand...

The problem I'm having now is due to a bad memory and two simultaneous projects...

While building the 340 motor for my brother's Barracuda, my Duster 340 motor decided to eat a couple of cam lobes and several lifters collapsed. So, in parallel, replaced the cam/lifters on my motor. So, have try and remember what the alignment looked like on both motors... Pretty sure my bother's 340 motor had the Comp Cam sprockets that looked like the picture above with the 3 keyways on the crank sprocket... If (My poor) memory serves me correctly, think paid more attention to the "Big" dots lining up instead of the crank keyway position... Which accordingly, would be "Wrong..." Don't remember seeing any other dots on the sprocket...

So, the latest is that I improved the ground connection on the MSD Box (Was mounted/grounded to a newly painted cylinder head, manually advanced the timing, turned the ignition on, cranked the motor via remote starter and if fired up! Didn't run it too long since I haven't filled the trans full of fluid and valve covers weren't torqued down very tight (Was anticipating having to pull them again) so oil started dripping on the headers...

But now, If I aligned the dots as above, the crank sprocket might be off...

Would the engine really start with the crank sprocket that far off? What would the symptoms be??

Would hate to have to tear the front off the motor if I can avoid it, but thinking that might be inevitable.... Yikes!
 
I guess it's okay to have a bad memory as long as you remember to take pictures... Assembled most of the motor back in April and was difficulty with timing gear alignment because of the 3 crank keyways and faint dot, so I did take a pic with my camera phone... The pic was how I was planning to assemble, so looks like it's correct with the crank key @ about 2 o'clock.

So, will move forward, tighten, and recheck everything and start the tuning process... Hopefully, initial start-up backfire was due to lack of advanced timing...

Thanks guys! More to come!!
 

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There are three marks. All three are different. Could it be for timing dead on, or retarded or advanced for the other two? I don't know, just asking.
 
Louie70Dart said:
There are three marks. All three are different. Could it be for timing dead on, or retarded or advanced for the other two? I don't know, just asking.
Click to expand...


I posted this immediately above


So far as the OP you really should degree the cam that is if you know the specs. The cam might be off, the drive might be off, or the block line bore might be off. All these could add up in the same direction, if a guy named "Murphy" is your neighbor
 
67Dart273 said:
I posted this immediately above


So far as the OP you really should degree the cam that is if you know the specs. The cam might be off, the drive might be off, or the block line bore might be off. All these could add up in the same direction, if a guy named "Murphy" is your neighbor
Click to expand...

Thanks. Murphy isn't a permanent resident in my neighborhood, but I know he has been a "Renter" several times... Will keep the idea of degreeing the cam in mind as I proceed. Just have so many more things left on my list right now. But, please don't interpret this an not appreciating your help. You've been a wealth of knowledge to date...

Have a couple water leaks and an electrical (under dash item) bug(s) to address next after I spend a little more time with the break-in and tuning... Also, need to replace the starter which means pulling the driver's side header/exhaust and steering linkage. Installed a remanufactured starter from Pep Boys and the thing sounds horrible; like it could die any minute...
 
Thanks 67Dart273 and matsucu06. I've been following this cause I plan on putting my 340 together myself. I did a 318 back in 1980 and I had it 180* out. I got it to run by going that way and the plug wires 180* also. Thanks, didn't mean to highjack.
 
matsucu06 said:
Thanks. Murphy isn't a permanent resident in my neighborhood, but I know he has been a "Renter" several times... Will keep the idea of degreeing the cam in mind as I proceed. Just have so many more things left on my list right now. But, please don't interpret this an not appreciating your help. You've been a wealth of knowledge to date...

Have a couple water leaks and an electrical (under dash item) bug(s) to address next after I spend a little more time with the break-in and tuning... Also, need to replace the starter which means pulling the driver's side header/exhaust and steering linkage. Installed a remanufactured starter from Pep Boys and the thing sounds horrible; like it could die any minute...
Click to expand...


Do yourself a favor and bolt a starter on from a 1996 Dakota.
 
Louie70Dart said:
Thanks 67Dart273 and matsucu06. I've been following this cause I plan on putting my 340 together myself. I did a 318 back in 1980 and I had it 180* out. I got it to run by going that way and the plug wires 180* also. Thanks, didn't mean to highjack.
Click to expand...

No worries... This is my third 340 motor I've built, but still amazed at how much I don't know! Each build has had different challenges that bring new learning opportunities... Guys like 67Dart273 (And many others on this site) are a wealth of knowledge and information to learn new stuff!!
 
sireland67 said:
Do yourself a favor and bolt a starter on from a 1996 Dakota.
Click to expand...

Was planning on swapping components from the rebuild starter to the old starter to economize, but don't really want to R&R this thing again...

Is there anything in particular or specialized about a 96 Dakota starter?
 
They are the so called "mini starter" and as an "old" guy (I'm 65, and owned my first Mopar in 1970) the "minis" are a LOT better starter. They draw less current and crank just about any engine you put them on. Just ask for a starter out of a mid 90's Dakota 318 / 5.2

See, they don't have wire would fields. They have permanent magnet fields. It's like Listerine. I love to hate it twice a day, or whatever that ad used to say. I hate the tinny sound, love how they crank, LOL
 
67Dart273 said:
They are the so called "mini starter" and as an "old" guy (I'm 65, and owned my first Mopar in 1970) the "minis" are a LOT better starter. They draw less current and crank just about any engine you put them on. Just ask for a starter out of a mid 90's Dakota 318 / 5.2

See, they don't have wire would fields. They have permanent magnet fields. It's like Listerine. I love to hate it twice a day, or whatever that ad used to say. I hate the tinny sound, love how they crank, LOL
Click to expand...

Ah... Got it. Yeah, I've used the mini-starters on my Duster and have always had good luck. R&R is much easier and provide much better header clearance! Ordered a remanufactured replacement from Pep Boys once and got the "Big" starter, decided to install the mini-starter instead... Had it laying around and figured it should be better than the one that was on the 318 pulled from the Barracuda.. What a mistake!

Okay, will probably break down and order a new mini-starter... Thanks again for all your help!!!

Curt
 
Here's the latest:
  • Tried to start the car from the ignition; cranked but wouldn't start
  • Connected a remote starter, turned ignition on, cranked with remote starter and it fired up.
  • Increased RPMs to 2500 to start cam break-in and advanced timing to 35 (BTDC) degrees total. Had to advance a fair amount...
  • Checked (New Autometer) Oil Pressure and Temp gauges. Temp gauges was oscillating back and forth like a metronome between 0 and 280. Couldn't tell temp, so only ran for about 5 minutes, shut down engine, and looked for any major leaks
  • After cool down, tried to fire the engine from ignition again, no start. Turned left ignition on, cranked with remote starter and fired right up...
  • Temp gauge still not functional, so shut down after about another 5 minutes..
  • Started poking around the bulkhead connector and found 2 wires (male end connectors) were not seated. According to the wiring diagram, one is for Temp gauge (I spliced into factory wire) and the other comes from Alt and goes to ignition switch! So, looks like I know what contributed to difficulty starting (Cranking from ignition switch) and faulty Temp gauge
  • Will clean, re-seat in connector, reinstall, and replace starter with mini-starter next
New Problem:
  • Low oil pressure! At 2500 RPMs, pressure was only reading about 25 lbs... Pressure would increase as rpms increased, but not by much...
  • Need some ideas on what and how to start checking... Have been reading a few threads (On this Board) on this subject, but not sure where to start. I'm pretty sure I didn't install the two small (Press-in) plugs behind the cam plate, but want to try other things before I start tearing motor apart... Before start-up, I went through all the priming steps correctly (Rotate) every 90 degrees. Initially, didn't have the 90 degree oil adapter tightened enough and blew out the gasket during priming and dumped about 2 quarts of oil on the garage floor... Yes, replaced both gasket, oil, and re-primed...
Don't really want to fire-up the motor again until I can determine what the problem is. Is priming with an electric drill enough to get an accurate pressure reading on the gauge? BTW, gauge has an electric ascending unit..

Any help would be appreciated...
 
First, "suspect the gauge." If this is an electric gauge, get a mechanical. No need for a dash mount gauge, you can buy a generic test gauge, or even use your compression tester with the proper adapters / fittings.

The big tricks that I'm aware of on SB pump pressure, other than "standard" issues like badly installed, damaged, wrong size bearings or journals, 'effed up pump bypass or filter problems

Issues with pan to pump interferance. Check carefully. I believe we had one member break a pump

Issues with ARP (and other ?) studs with pump fit. This may be the one I was thinking broke the pump

There's a drive in core plug in the vertical oil hole from the rear main going up to the galley area

There's a recessed plug FORWARD of an access plug in the rear of the engine. I believe you can see this by pulling the dist. The plug is down in the rear near the distributor gear facing to the rear. These are threaded plugs

I'm not too sure the front plugs are an issue. There's documented proof of guys having engines with no plugs, and at least one claimed the factory never put them in some engines
 
"Initially, didn't have the 90 degree oil adapter tightened enough and blew out the gasket during priming and dumped about 2 quarts of oil on the garage floor..." The good thing is you caught it. When I had my 318 back together in 1980, I didn't notice the plug on the back of the block was missing. Had to pull engine and split tranny from it to put a plug in. Hey, I was a real rookie here. At least it didn't start.
 
Up to 1969 the timing marks were on the passenger side of the motor,
in 1970 they moved them to the driver side. That may be your problem
with the wrong balancer that you used.

I just read that you verified TDC was correct...disregard this post.
 
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