Questions on recent alignment

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kielbasavw

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65 plymouth valiant. I had an alignment done and I'm wondering about the specs they did. (I have to go back anyways as it still pulls slightly right and wheel is ever so slightly cocked to 1 side.
Brand new moog ball joints, control arm bushings, Pitman arm, tie rod ends. Nos idler, new wheel bearings and seals new kyb shocks new hankook 185/75/14s.
So they said the max caster they could set was 1.3 degrees and the offset (other side was set to .7) that seems a bit low for max caster I would have thought at least 2-3 degrees?
They also set camber 0 degrees. And toe .05 degree each side. I've seen people here mention .25 degree per side for camber?

Car sort of wants to wander on the highway and quite easy to turn and doesn't return as hard as I'm use to before the brand new front end overhaul I did. And i suspect the low caster angle is the cause. I'm going back next week like to get some input on what I have here. Thanks
 
You can't get much caster with the stock UCA bushings. Most run the Moog offset/problem solver UCA bushings and if you do a search for "moog offset bushings" it should pull up plenty of reading material and how they are installed to get more caster.
 
what is .5 degrees "toe"
get under there and turn your tie rod one turn longer on the side to correct your your steering wheel.
this will also give you a bit more "toe in" and may solve all your problems
 
As mentioned, you might need the offset bushings to do it but these are what we normally use.
(I'd bet you are right on the caster causing some wandering)

I use 1/8 toe with poly bushings.

alignment-specifications.jpg
 
tx on the .5 toe conversion.
If it doesn't return then yes probably not enough caster
 
Recirculating ball type gear boxes like on our old Mopars will try to find center when the pump is energized. So, if the steering wheel is off center say to the left a little, it is completely possible the slight pull to the right is the gear box trying to find center.

When you say "offset" is .7 are you saying one side is .7 of a degree different than the other as far as caster? That's unacceptable to me. I like caster as dead even as I can get it. I don't care about road crown or any other road anomalies some shops try to compensate for. When I am on the interstate, or drag strip, I want my junk driving straight. 0* camber is perfectly acceptable. Anywhere from -.5* to +.5* is good, but again as long as it's even from side to side or close.
 
Manual steering. Pull not coming from pump. Also with caster offset it drives almost straight on highway. Pulls slightly right.
It's not half a degree of toe. It's .05 each side or .1 total.
The offset bushings I never would have thought I would have needed them as it seems the guys who mention them want to get up towards the 4-6 degree range.
One thing is forsure. I'm not doing the bushings again !
 
Positive camber is for bias ply's and will result in poor handling with radials. Follow the skosh chart.

.7*'s of cross caster is too much even for a road crown setting, .5* is for a heavy road crown so if you don't have heavily crowned roads even that's too much. I set mine even side to side, typically only country roads have that much crown, freeways barely have any. Depends on where you do your driving but I'd rather have mine go straight and deal with the crown myself.

.05 degrees of toe per side for a total of .1 is only like .04" of total toe in, so less than 1/16". That's not enough, so rolling down the road you're probably toed out slightly. Even with all new everything 1/16" is as low as I would go for toe in, and with rubber bushings especially 1/8" may be better for you. Here's a calculator that converts toe in degrees to inches. It has one to go the other direction as well. Convert Toe Degrees to Inches

Offset bushings in stock control arms will not get you past about +3.5* of caster. It depends on ride height, but if you want more than +3.5* you need tubular or adjustable UCA's. Offset bushings are usually needed to get anywhere near +3*s with stock UCA's. Alignment settings on torsion bar set ups are ride height dependent, so with stock UCA's and bushings you may be all in at +1.3* because it depends on your ride height too.
 
Just used that chart and with tire size 24.9" diameter it's .043 total. Definitely not enough I'll have to mention it when I go back. I guess I may have to live the caster. Maybe the correct toe in will help the stability some.

The offset is actually .6 degrees. It's .7 on one side and 1.3 on the other should have clarified. This car is my daily and mostly sees highway miles. Its 19 miles one way
To work. It seems like it wants more offset the main thing I want is it to drive straight on the freeway. Also the local streets and freeways pull to the right very similarly
 
One speaks of 'either 'toe-in' or 'toe-out'.

If an alignmentshop sets up caster with that much difference, I doubt their knowledge or (in)competence in that field.
The wheel with the most caster is the side the car will wander to.

The 'road crown' compensation is imo kinda something of the past, or if you're an old fart and always drive on the far right side of the road maybe.
 
I don't understand... so you rather always pull the wheel left because your car wants to drive into the curb? I'd like to be able to let go of the wheel for whatever reason and not worry about hitting the car next to me or driving up the sidewalk? There's no other way to compensate for the crown.
With my .6 degree offset between the wheels it still pulls left. Slightly. So either my print out is wrong, or there's something funny going on with car that makes its pull. Or I need more to compensate.
When they aglined the car I had old tires. That had radial pull it would pull very hard right, or I'd swap it and it would gently pull left. Now with new tires it's back to a slight pull to right.
 
Tires "should have" no effect on the alignment, during the aligning, as the reflector-units are mounted to the rims.
A car slightly pulling to the right can also be considered a small 'safety feature' in case a driver gets unwell or loses conciousness. The car drive itself to the safer side of the road, instead of into oncoming traffic.

But whatever the setting currently is now, get it fixed properly (by using the "skosh chart" posted earlier).
 
BigBlockMopar said:
The wheel with the most caster is the side the car will wander to.
Click to expand...

This is incorrect. The side with the less caster will pull, because the weight of the car is trying to throw the lesser side into a turn.
 
Just because something is new doesn't mean it is perfect. The tightness (torque ) of each suspension part can be uneven. A tight ball joint or tie rod end. As mentioned before , the ride height has a large affect on the alignment. This is why the tires need to be the same size, brand and model (actual tire dimensions are not the same between brands). The rims must also be matching side to side.(offset, width ) and the air pressure must be set to vehicle specs. Older, pre-radial tire cars will use more. To make sure that you are not preloading the suspension parts unevenly, side to side, You do not do final tightening of the suspension parts until they are all installed. The wheels and tie rods are centered. Jack the front end up in the center with a hydraulic jack, make sure that your suspension parts are just snug. Lower the car all the way down and jounce the suspension a few times to settle. Now final tighten (or torque with a torque wrench if you have the specs). Now every thing should be as neutral as you can get it before your final alignment. Just for giggles, before you do anything else, either rotate your tires front to back ( if all 4 are the same of course) or just the fronts, side to side and test drive. Even new tires do not always track straight down the road. And to just be on the same page, does your car drift to one side or pull to one side. They are not the same.
 
I guess drift. Steering wheel.doesn't seem to turn as it pulls right. But if I hold my slightly off center3d wheel straight it drives straight (with old tires when it pulled slightly left the steerING wheel was still cocked to the right, so the steering wheel is off only because it wasn't totally centered when they set the toe.
 
Um, we already know the alignment is wrong. We know for absolutely sure there isn't enough toe in, which will cause the car to wander. And we know there's very little positive caster, which will also cause the car to wander. And we know there's too much cross-caster, which will cause the car to pull. We don't know which side it's going to pull to because the OP hasn't said which side has which caster number, and he's switched from saying it pulled right to it pulls left. But it's gonna pull.

The alignment is wrong regardless. Maybe the suspension and ride height won't support more caster, but that just means it's going to tend to wander unless more caster is added. That's why so many folks add the offset bushings. +1* of caster and radials don't go well together, especially with a worm/ball steering set up with a dead spot in the middle. It's going to wander if that's the best you can do for caster. Adding some toe in will help, but the caster is going to limit how helpful that is.

Also, if the tires are worn the tires can cause the pull too. Correcting the alignment doesn't fix the wear pattern on the tires once it's established.

Edit-
Here's an article that explains all this better

AGCO Automotive Repair Service - Baton Rouge, LA - Detailed Auto Topics - Wheel Alignment, Camber and Caster
 
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If you read it.. it clearly says I mentioned it was originally aligned with old tires. Which had a bad tire that caused the car to pull hard right. So I swapped the 2 fronts and it pulled slightly left proving I had a bad tire. So bought brand new tires had them instaled and it pulls slightly right.
I don't have the sheet in front of me but I'm pretty sure the offset of caster is on the correct side to compensate for crown. And like I said I need to go back to the shop to have the toe fixed to fix wheel center and add a bit more toe in. Which is what I see is the only thing wrong with what they dI'd really... if they truly can only get 1.3 degrees of caster that's not their fault. And if they made the caster even between both tires... the car would pull even harder I would imagine.
I could ask them to see how much more caster they can dial in if the camber was set to .25 degree instead of 0. It's just a daily driver with a stupid slant6 I drive it like a grany anyways I donr care for cornering in this car. Just want to be straight down the highway
 
kielbasavw said:
If you read it.. it clearly says I mentioned it was originally aligned with old tires. Which had a bad tire that caused the car to pull hard right. So I swapped the 2 fronts and it pulled slightly left proving I had a bad tire. So bought brand new tires had them instaled and it pulls slightly right.
I don't have the sheet in front of me but I'm pretty sure the offset of caster is on the correct side to compensate for crown. And like I said I need to go back to the shop to have the toe fixed to fix wheel center and add a bit more toe in. Which is what I see is the only thing wrong with what they dI'd really... if they truly can only get 1.3 degrees of caster that's not their fault. And if they made the caster even between both tires... the car would pull even harder I would imagine.
I could ask them to see how much more caster they can dial in if the camber was set to .25 degree instead of 0. It's just a daily driver with a stupid slant6 I drive it like a grany anyways I donr care for cornering in this car. Just want to be straight down the highway
Click to expand...

I read a lot of threads man, I forgot about the new tire bit. I thought it was worth mentioning just because of the other post all about tires.

As for the cross-caster, it really just depends on your preference. If you drive on more than one kind of road, you're just picking which kind of road the car will pull on. If you set the cross-caster for a heavy crown like yours is now, it will pull left on things like freeways or multi-lane highways because they aren't crowned that much. If you set the cross caster to zero, your car will pull to the right on heavily crowned roads. If all you do is drive small, heavily crowned roads, then set the cross caster up to pull left, that's fine. IMO .6* of cross-caster is too much even for most crowned roads, but I don't drive where you live. If you're in Orange county California I don't know why you'd want to be set up for heavy road crown, because the majority of roads there aren't like that. I set mine to zero, I'd rather have the car pull right on crowned roads because they tend to be small streets/roads where you're usually doing a lot more steering anyway, corners, stop signs, cross walks, people, whatever. On the freeway I prefer to have the car not pull, because you can let it do it's thing and it will stay in the lane rather than constantly putting pressure on the wheel for long distances. And since I do a fair amount of driving on freeways and multi-lane roads, I deal with the slight pull right on smaller roads. Around here even most of the small roads aren't crowned that heavily, and usually they've got ruts and potholes anyway so with my wider tires my car tracks the ruts anyway regardless of a small amount of crown.

The thing is that with that little total caster, your car will have very little return-to-center for the steering. Since its a manual steering box all of that return-to-center action comes from the alignment. It will tend to wander, and any "pull" that's built in will be exaggerated. I'd rather have +1.3* caster on both sides to get as much stability as possible if that's all you can get. You can set up a little cross camber to help with the road crown too, if you bothered to read the article I posted. Set the driver's side to zero, set the passenger side to -.25*, and it will pull slightly left. That's such little camber it won't effect wear anyway.

You asked about your alignment and why your car wanders and has very little return to center, you got the answer. It is your alignment. Set it up however you'd like. Personally, I'd pull the UCA's and swap to offset bushings so I could get up toward +3* of caster, it makes a big difference. I dropped my car from +7* caster down to +6.25*, it made a big difference in steering effort and stability. Going from +1* to +3* will make a significant difference. And UCA bushings are pretty easy to do with just some homemade tools. I do mine with a section of pipe, a hardened bolt, an assortment of heavy duty washers and a nut. With a 1/2" impact it's super easy. This is my set up, I think I misplaced one of my smaller washers for extraction. But you get the idea. Should be around $10 from most overpriced hardware stores.

IMG_4425.JPG


Or Mancini's version, $35. Mancini Upper Control Arm Bushing Remover/Installer
upper-control-arm-bushing-remover-installer-a-b-e-19.jpg


I'd rather spend an afternoon doing that than dealing with a car that's going to wander all over the place, but maybe that's just me. Good luck.
 
The car pulls the same amount weather I'm on the freeway or the street. I too would like it to be totall straight on freeway and deal with crowned road. My main concern with my first post is do I really only have 1.3 caster total, and it seems everyone agrees it's totally possible with normal bushings.
I wasn't really worried about toe or camber. Even the slight wandering/unstabillity and returning to center from a turn is so minimal I probably shouldn't have really mentioned it, I'm just picking hairs really as far as that goes.
What doesn't make sense is most seem to agree I have way too much offset in caster, but yet it still pulls.. toe is even, camber is even. Yet it still wants to go right. And like I mentioned before the steering wheel doesn't turn right, it just veers right. I don't see what else would cause it to do this, if I remember right the rear wheels has equal toe in and fairly everything else between the 2 sides.
I used a very similar homemade tool to pull the bushings out when I did them. I just honestly hate thinking of pulling the arms back off again, also Id be totally fine with the way It drives and feels now if it just went straight.
 
I also just noticed on rock auto they have eccentric bolts and washers and some say plus or minus 2.25 degrees. Is this just a stock replacement or do they add more adjustment then factory eccentric? If it's a stock replacement why do I have a full degree less available to play with.
 
kielbasavw said:
The car pulls the same amount weather I'm on the freeway or the street. I too would like it to be totall straight on freeway and deal with crowned road. My main concern with my first post is do I really only have 1.3 caster total, and it seems everyone agrees it's totally possible with normal bushings.
I wasn't really worried about toe or camber. Even the slight wandering/unstabillity and returning to center from a turn is so minimal I probably shouldn't have really mentioned it, I'm just picking hairs really as far as that goes.
What doesn't make sense is most seem to agree I have way too much offset in caster, but yet it still pulls.. toe is even, camber is even. Yet it still wants to go right. And like I mentioned before the steering wheel doesn't turn right, it just veers right. I don't see what else would cause it to do this, if I remember right the rear wheels has equal toe in and fairly everything else between the 2 sides.
I used a very similar homemade tool to pull the bushings out when I did them. I just honestly hate thinking of pulling the arms back off again, also Id be totally fine with the way It drives and feels now if it just went straight.
Click to expand...

Can you post the actual alignment break down by left and right? If it's pulling right with a .6* cross camber I don't think it's road crown causing the issue. Especially not in the OC.

The lack of caster and toe will exacerbate the pull. The car will tend to wander with that little toe-in and positive caster, so, it wouldn't take much to make it pull one way or the other. With a whole bunch of caster and a little more toe the car would want to go straight more, so it would tend to resist small differences more.

kielbasavw said:
I also just noticed on rock auto they have eccentric bolts and washers and some say plus or minus 2.25 degrees. Is this just a stock replacement or do they add more adjustment then factory eccentric? If it's a stock replacement why do I have a full degree less available to play with.
Click to expand...

I think those are just stock replacements. The eccentric has to be the same size, so does the bolt. The slot in the UCA mount is the same length. Maybe the bolt is further out in the eccentric, but that adjustment would still be limited by the length of the slot in the mount. Maybe I'm missing something, wouldn't be the first time.

As for why you can't get +2.25 if that is the case- you're assuming your car has the "middle" of the adjustment at zero. Ride height makes a big difference on these cars. Like, several degrees of difference. It could be that you could get -3* of caster with your car, so, you can only get back to +1.3. And of course you change the camber when you're adjusting those bolts, so, you might not be able to use the max caster adjustment because of the camber setting too.

Remember these cars were originally designed to run as much as -1* of caster with manual steering, and positive camber up to +.75*. Just crazy bias ply numbers. So at factory ride height with factory parts running negative camber and positive caster isn't always easy. Hence the offset bushings. And even with offset bushings most people can only get to into the +3* caster range. The offset bushings add a couple of degrees, so you're not far from what I would expect with stock parts.
 
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