Where's the Wow?

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I totally agree with RRR ,but i think if you have to advance a cam more than 6 deg. you better think about a smaller cam.I dont think the cam is why it has no upper rpm power.Usually a cam that is too big has nothing but upper rpms that is why I asked about the valve springs.
RustyRatRod said:
You keep sayin you degreed the cam. WHERE is the ICL? If you cannot answer that, you didn not degree anything.

That's a whopper of a cam for a stone stock pistoned engine with probably 8:1 or less static compression. Yup, that's right. The deck heights were terribly high on these engines and combustion chambers were generally big. I have seen then routinely blueprint at under 8:1.

So, you CAN make chicken salad out of chicken ****........if you will just listen. Advance that cam down around 100 ICL and that pup will come alive.

When you get that done and you KNOW it's right and not half assed guessed at (no offense) then recurve the distributor timing. You will want "somewhere" around 20* initial timing and limit the total to "around" 36* and you want it all in by about 2500 "or so" RPM.

Doing those two things alone can add possibly as much as 75 HP and 100 pound feet of torque....and no I ain't kiddin. None of this is in the carburetor jetting. It's all in the timing. Almost every stinkin bit of it.
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brian6pac said:
your going to have to check it when pulling the balancer off the crank probably turned a little. you need a piston stop and the degree wheel after you put it back together and check the balancer.
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This is correct. The OP needs to re-start the cam timing process by finding true TDC with a piston stop (with heads on), or a dial indicator in the #1 or #6 piston top (if heads are off). Then check the damper mark relative to the timing cover mark to see if the damper is accurate; this is for ignition timing ONLY. The damper mark should not be used for cam timing.

Then, without moving the crank from true TDC, remove the timing cover and see where the dots are. If the crank sprocket lines up as shown in the pix, with the dot to the left of the exact centerline, then the keyway in the crank sprocket is machined off where it should be, and that would be the source of the retarded cam timing (and some of the crappy operation).
 
I have a new balancer with degrees on it arriving on Wednesday. Pending work tonight I am going to reconfirm TDC with a piston stop. Then work on redoing cam degreeing with a wheel. If I understand correctly RRR is recommending 6 degrees advance on the cam?
 
Freezerman said:
If I understand correctly RRR is recommending 6 degrees advance on the cam?
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That's right. You probably already know this but you have a crank sprocket for +4, 0 and -4 degrees cam timing. If the sprocket slot with the triangular slot in the top is used, the cam should be advanced + 4 degrees. The difference between +4 and +6 degrees is going to be slightly perceptible.... +4 degrees change will be easily noticeable for an experienced driver who is looking for the change but won't make a difference like a new motor.... You're gonna need to find a lot more degreeing error to make a BIG change; one tooth off would be around 15 degrees.

The DCR increase for +4 degrees is less than 0.2 points and just over 0.2 points for +6 degrees. Even at 100 degrees ICL, the DCR works out to be 7.2 or so with your heads and gaskets. Which I think was RRR's overall point on the compression, etc....

And if you do find the damper ring retarded, then the ignition timing has been way retarded too. A possible triple whammy on torque....
 
IF, the OP's numbers from the first post are accurate, He should have 8.15:1.
IF, the OP's compression gauge is reasonably accurate, 140-150psi w/that cam is not bad for that squeeze at all.
The FSM for any smog era 8.4:1 360ci states "minimum 100psi cranking compression, plugs out & throttle wide open, max variation 40psi."
That's with a bone stock cam. I don't know what the seat to seat on that Comp cam is, but I doubt it's more than the Crane BlazerII I tossed in
My 'teener. W/a 4 gear I'd hammer it and the command to light 'em up went straight to the SG 3.23's & they obliged, maybe lobe separation
on that thing is diff., I dunno but even when the A998 was in it smoke was in the air!!
 
nm9stheham said:
The DCR increase for +4 degrees is less than 0.2 points and just over 0.2 points for +6 degrees. Even at 100 degrees ICL, the DCR works out to be 7.2 or so with your heads and gaskets. Which I think was RRR's overall point on the compression, etc....

And if you do find the damper ring retarded, then the ignition timing has been way retarded too. A possible triple whammy on torque....
Click to expand...

I'm with those who believe the crank rolled back during removal, & that's about exactly what it looks like, which is why I suggested mocking the cover & damper
(as far as will slip on) back up w/the dots actually aligned. There may be nothing wrong w/the damper at all. IF, the damper WAS on TDC & those marks were there,
the damper ring would be advanced, not retarded & his timing would be too far advanced(which will kill the top end, but not the bottom).
 
Freezerman said:
I have a new balancer with degrees on it arriving on Wednesday. Pending work tonight I am going to reconfirm TDC with a piston stop. Then work on redoing cam degreeing with a wheel. If I understand correctly RRR is recommending 6 degrees advance on the cam?
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No. I am recommending installing it 8-10 degrees advanced. Somewhere around 102-100 ICL.

That cam is pretty big for such a low compression engine. That's what no one is getting. It will be perfectly fine advance down that far. It will bring back a LOT of bottom end torque and jack the cylinder pressure up. I always use a compression gauge in conjunction with a degree wheel. That way, I can be sure the cylinder pressure isn't too high when I am done.

Degree it where the card says. Run a compression test. See where it is. If it's not 170-180 or so, advance it 2 more degrees. Run another compression test. Get it?
 
Ok, thanks for all the advice! Thanks for centerline clarification. So with a piston stop and the balancer back on and choosing a spot on the timing chain cover it stops at 40 BTDC and 20 ATDC. Does that mean the balancer is off 10 degrees?
 
Freezerman said:
Ok, thanks for all the advice! Thanks for centerline clarification. So with a piston stop and the balancer back on and choosing a spot on the timing chain cover it stops at 40 BTDC and 20 ATDC. Does that mean the balancer is off 10 degrees?
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What do You mean "choosing a spot"?
 
Freezerman said:
Ok, thanks for all the advice! Thanks for centerline clarification. So with a piston stop and the balancer back on and choosing a spot on the timing chain cover it stops at 40 BTDC and 20 ATDC. Does that mean the balancer is off 10 degrees?
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It means use a degree wheel.
 
I used the 10 degree BTDC mark on timing cover and I have degree tape on the balancer. So it hit the stop at 40 BTDC on the damper one way and 20 ATDC the other way at the same spot on the cover. If I need to use the degree wheel instead I will do that tomorrow.
 
Freezerman said:
I used the 10 degree BTDC mark on timing cover and I have degree tape on the balancer. So it hit the stop at 40 BTDC on the damper one way and 20 ATDC the other way at the same spot on the cover. If I need to use the degree wheel instead I will do that tomorrow.
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You do if you want it right. Degree wheel and dial indicator. Not trying to be smart, but how many times do you want to do this? You need to be SURE. Know what I mean, Vern?
 
For sure, once is good. Just wasn't sure if if I could do it with the balancer or not. I'll hook up the wheel tomorrow.
 
Freezerman said:
For sure, once is good. Just wasn't sure if if I could do it with the balancer or not. I'll hook up the wheel tomorrow.
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What You should be doing is looking at the TDC mark on the damper vs the TDC mark(or -0-) on the cover since You've got the damper on. You stated a 60deg spread, so if
the damper is good, it should stop 30deg BTDC & ATDC, it's that simple. If not the damper & cover are mis-matched(from diff. apps) or the damper has slipped. A degree
wheel is the only good way to check the intake centerline,.......................there is a not so in the distant past thread that RRR linked to a Comp kit, watch their vid.
 
Freezerman said:
For sure, once is good. Just wasn't sure if if I could do it with the balancer or not. I'll hook up the wheel tomorrow.
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I sure would. I think you will have the best results.

Forget about the TDC mark on the engine. FIND true TDC by degreeing the cam first. You can make the timing point align with the mark easily. That's no big deal. Just make sure you FIND true TDC first. The rest is downhill. You can go on the Comp Cams site for unbiased instructions on how to properly degree that cam.
 
I have degreed many...many cams...and you guys confuse the hell out of me...LOL
 
RustyRatRod said:
I sure would. I think you will have the best results.

Forget about the TDC mark on the engine. FIND true TDC by degreeing the cam first. You can make the timing point align with the mark easily. That's no big deal. Just make sure you FIND true TDC first. The rest is downhill. You can go on the Comp Cams site for unbiased instructions on how to properly degree that cam.
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I'm not recommending that to degree the cam Dude, the OP questions whether his damper's off & subsequently all of His ign. timing, now is the time to check it!!
 
with a piston stop on number 1 piston....the damper as it sits on the engine now... should have the same amount of degrees on either side of TDC...

if there is not enough degrees on the damper...use a tape measure to see

if not..then you have a damper problem
 
I still say there is confusion (or maybe its me) tte pic he posted of front end that shows 6 oclock cam gear and 12 oclocl crank.
Freeman you said that was TDC BUT didnt say which cylinder that was?
As mentioned 2 pages back. THAT is NOT #1 firing TDC. It is #6.
If this is how you have the plugs wired, yep itll be a dog.
Keep.it simple and knock the simple **** off the list.
This thread is.confusing the **** outta me as well.
Good luck
 
Ok with that I information my balancer is definitely off. Good thing I'm getting a new one. The timing marks were at #1 TDC opposite of firing .
 
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