Thinking of going BB...

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Sinister. said:
I wasn't even planning on using new lifters. Even though at the time of disassembly, I didn't plan on reusing cam, I still marked everything. In my head it'd seem fine to reuse the entire cam system since nothing changed.



I have read it... multiple times :D
Thanks for the link though.
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Now THAT is actually an acceptable method. As long as each lifter is placed back on the original lobe it broke in on and ran against, it should be fine. Any doubt about lifter placement and you better get new ones, though.
 
StrokerScamp said:
Now THAT is actually an acceptable method. As long as each lifter is placed back on the original lobe it broke in on and ran against, it should be fine. Any doubt about lifter placement and you better get new ones, though.
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Yeah. Figured I could put off spending $300 for a little while. Cams arn't to expensive, but when you throw lifters, pushrods, and bearings in there...
 
What benefit would a 500 have over a 451? and vise versa.

Seems like the 500's bob weight is really low. And it is more cubes.
 
I did the same thing. Bounced back and forth between this and that. After I went blind from reading I just decided the 451 was the most budget friendly for me. You can build a nice one using stock iron heads. If you get moch over that, you really need alloy heads to take advantage of the extra air the larger cubes flow. Mo money.
 
StrokerScamp said:
I did the same thing. Bounced back and forth between this and that. After I went blind from reading I just decided the 451 was the most budget friendly for me. You can build a nice one using stock iron heads. If you get moch over that, you really need alloy heads to take advantage of the extra air the larger cubes flow. Mo money.
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But with the possibility of headers and aluminum heads in the future? I guess the question is how far in the future... hmm. I mean the 500 would still probably do alright without alloy heads, just wouldn't meet its full potential.. or am I wrong in thinking this?
 
StrokerScamp said:
I did the same thing. Bounced back and forth between this and that. After I went blind from reading I just decided the 451 was the most budget friendly for me. You can build a nice one using stock iron heads. If you get moch over that, you really need alloy heads to take advantage of the extra air the larger cubes flow. Mo money.
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Is your 451 complete and running or are you still collecting parts?
 
Sinister. said:
Is your 451 complete and running or are you still collecting parts?
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Still acquiring parts. It's gonna be a long haul. Already got a good block, new pistons and a set of six pack rods. Crank is next.
 
Sinister. said:
But with the possibility of headers and aluminum heads in the future? I guess the question is how far in the future... hmm. I mean the 500 would still probably do alright without alloy heads, just wouldn't meet its full potential.. or am I wrong in thinking this?
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"MY" opinion is....for what it's worth...probably not much is that when you surpass a certain threshold, the need for better heads kinda becomes exponential. Just one simple little peon's opinion, though.
 
StrokerScamp said:
"MY" opinion is....for what it's worth...probably not much is that when you surpass a certain threshold, the need for better heads kinda becomes exponential. Just one simple little peon's opinion, though.
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Wouldn't that just make even more of a difference when switching from iron to alloy? (I'm still not decided on 500 or 451, trying to spark a little debate :p)

What pistons are you going to use?
 
No. casting material has nothing to do with it. It's all about flow. Now, it's just coincidence that all the best flowing heads are alloy. That's because no one makes an out of the box iron for the big block. I suppose some of the offerings from MP would work......but still much port work is needed. I'm using the KB280.
 
StrokerScamp said:
No. casting material has nothing to do with it. It's all about flow. Now, it's just coincidence that all the best flowing heads are alloy. That's because no one makes an out of the box iron for the big block. I suppose some of the offerings from MP would work......but still much port work is needed. I'm using the KB280.
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That's kind of what I was leaning towards. It generally seems that aluminum heads flow better out of the box when compared to the original casts. The main reason that would still push me towards 500 is that, since aluminum heads would probably used on the engine if I can get the funds(long term) then in the end the 500 would probably make more power.

Seems like the 451 is an amazing combination but would not benefit as much from the higher flow.
 
The 500 seems as if it has more potential, but it will cost more money in the long run.

The 451 would probably run fine with the 906's if I clean them up, but won't have quite the potential.

So it would almost be a question of how much power do I need and how much do I want to spend...

Also, the debate between the two was kind of based on the strokers kits from 440 source. Tomorrow I am going to try to get ahold of a machine shop to see how much would charge to turn a crank and balance the assembly. If that comes out to be quite a bit cheaper, then it will be 451.
 
Damn a stroker kit all to hell. Man, they're just out for your money. You can use stock parts to build the 451. PAW sells LY rods reworked with good bolts for 149. you'd need to get um bushed for floatin rods,but our shop here does that for 15.50 a rod. Look around. Steel 440 cranks can be had cheap if you look and bide your time. You should be able to get it all done for 500-700 bucks. Balancer and all. I wouldn't buy a stroker kit if you held a gun to my head. Piss on all that.
 
StrokerScamp said:
Damn a stroker kit all to hell. Man, they're just out for your money. You can use stock parts to build the 451. PAW sells LY rods reworked with good bolts for 149. you'd need to get um bushed for floatin rods,but our shop here does that for 15.50 a rod. Look around. Steel 440 cranks can be had cheap if you look and bide your time. You should be able to get it all done for 500-700 bucks. Balancer and all. I wouldn't buy a stroker kit if you held a gun to my head. Piss on all that.
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WOW! That much in a difference in price, eh? 500-700 including gaskets and block/crank work? Like I said I'm going to call around and see what local shops quote me. Are you doing any work to your heads? I think I might see about doing a little work at home... nothing radical though.

If you don't mind me asking, what did you pay for the KB280s? and where did you find them? I'm having troubles locating a set.
 
I didn't pay and money for them. I traded for them. I traded for those, my 400, the 727, some heads, my 187 oil pan....and the whole car too. I've literally traded myself into this. Besides all that, even if you bide your time and do no trading,yes, it can be that much of a price difference.
 
StrokerScamp said:
I didn't pay and money for them. I traded for them. I traded for those, my 400, the 727, some heads, my 187 oil pan....and the whole car too. I've literally traded myself into this. Besides all that, even if you bide your time and do no trading,yes, it can be that much of a price difference.
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And I figured machine work would cost more than what I was just quoted.

turn crank - 105
balance assembly - 250
sleeve - 115 for the first, 85 for the second for labor and 35 for each sleeve
bore - sleeves are bored free then 20 per cylinder
square deck - 160

When I asked about bushing the rods for full floating pins he said "why would you want to do that?"
Wouldn't full floating pins last longer? Seems like they would since the wear would be distributed on the pin.

And he said it's $6 to put a piston on a rod.
 
Two things. Why all the sleeves? Also, if you have a machinist asking YOU why you wanna go with floating pins, find another shop. The advantages of floating pins are well known industry wide. They offer great stress relief and actually free up some horsepower. By allowing the piston some more movement than a conventional pressed pin offers, the piston is actually allowed to "rock" in the bore a miniscule amount and relieve some stress. that's why almost every high performance engine from the factory had them. Also, keep in mind too that floating pins will produce a noise. They will make the engine have a knock like a diesel at idle. Nothing to worry about. That's how they work. Again, I cannot stress enough that if your "machinist" questions the use of floating pins, I would be questioning using HIM. Lastly, some shops will try to talk you out of bushings in the small end and just size the rod itself to a float fit with the pin. DON'T do it. You need bronze bushings in the small end.

Oh and that crank price is ridiculous. I get cranks turned all day for 65 bucks.
 
StrokerScamp said:
Two things. Why all the sleeves? Also, if you have a machinist asking YOU why you wanna go with floating pins, find another shop. The advantages of floating pins are well known industry wide. They offer great stress relief and actually free up some horsepower. By allowing the piston some more movement than a conventional pressed pin offers, the piston is actually allowed to "rock" in the bore a miniscule amount and relieve some stress. that's why almost every high performance engine from the factory had them. Also, keep in mind too that floating pins will produce a noise. They will make the engine have a knock like a diesel at idle. Nothing to worry about. That's how they work. Again, I cannot stress enough that if your "machinist" questions the use of floating pins, I would be questioning using HIM. Lastly, some shops will try to talk you out of bushings in the small end and just size the rod itself to a float fit with the pin. DON'T do it. You need bronze bushings in the small end.

Oh and that crank price is ridiculous. I get cranks turned all day for 65 bucks.
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I asked about the sleeves as a just in case type of thing. The cylinders are a little rough but I think they should clean up fine.

Haha I wasn't sure on the floating pins so I didn't challenge him on it. I've actually never used the guy. I may call around and see if I can get better prices anywhere else.

Wouldn't the piston rock put extra stress on the cylinder? I know it's proven as most aircraft use full floating pins. I'm just curious about it.

And I thought that sounded reasonable... time to make some more calls..
 
I like these numbers a little bit better... even though it's a little farther of a drive.

turn crank - 80
balance assembly - 195
sleeve - 55 per cylinder
block tanked, bored, honed - 170
square deck - 75
bush rods - 8.50 ea
line bore - 195
 
That aint bad.....you can knock off the line bore. They never need it. Look....I'll give you a tip. Machine shops love to spend money. YOURS. don't go into it ASKING them about stuff like sleeves and line boring. Let them check it and tell you. You go askin um about it and lots of times it'll need it just cause you brought it up. So I come up with 588 on machine work. See, I told you it could be done if you shop around. All these folks sayin you can't do this and that in a budget...that's fine and all. they probably never had to work with just what they had. Probably always been able to shell out a grand for a crank and all that hooha. And that's great. Bless their hearts. I'm glad they can do it, but I can't. I've rebuilt every oil pump in nearly every engine I've ever built for ME. Why? Oil pump kits are less than half the cost of an oil pump and the cast iron bodies of an oil pump seldom wear at ALL. I save money literally everywhere I can. I'm tearing down an old dual point 383 distributor right now to build for my 451. By the time I'm done, it will be an electronic distributor with a hot advance curve for under a hundred bucks including the cost of the distributor itself. You gotta do what you gotta do.
 
StrokerScamp said:
That aint bad.....you can knock off the line bore. They never need it. Look....I'll give you a tip. Machine shops love to spend money. YOURS. don't go into it ASKING them about stuff like sleeves and line boring. Let them check it and tell you. You go askin um about it and lots of times it'll need it just cause you brought it up. So I come up with 588 on machine work. See, I told you it could be done if you shop around. All these folks sayin you can't do this and that in a budget...that's fine and all. they probably never had to work with just what they had. Probably always been able to shell out a grand for a crank and all that hooha. And that's great. Bless their hearts. I'm glad they can do it, but I can't. I've rebuilt every oil pump in nearly every engine I've ever built for ME. Why? Oil pump kits are less than half the cost of an oil pump and the cast iron bodies of an oil pump seldom wear at ALL. I save money literally everywhere I can. I'm tearing down an old dual point 383 distributor right now to build for my 451. By the time I'm done, it will be an electronic distributor with a hot advance curve for under a hundred bucks including the cost of the distributor itself. You gotta do what you gotta do.
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Makes sense. Sleeve/line bore were more out of curiosity. Yeah I know what you mean. I would love to buy all new parts, but it's just not going to happen. I'm trying to get ahold of the other guys that I know have 440s to see what they want for them (I doubt they'll just sell/trade me the crank). Not really sure what I should offer for them though lol. Oh yeah. I'm all about saving money. That's why when the local body man told me it would be over a year and 16k to put my car in paint, I walked out the door. Speaking of distributor... I need to do some more digging to see what else is out in the shed. Seems like every time I look I find something new. Last time I found what I believe to be a 383 spreadbore intake and some heads that I still haven't identified.

I honestly didn't think machine work would be that reasonable... that makes a 440source crank/kit look really bad now!
 
Told ya. ...and these guys around here treat me like I don't know ****.
 
What cam are you planning on running? Sounds like we're probably going to end up with pretty similar engines lol....

From the reading I've done 906s and 346s are pretty much the same. Should I just go with which ever looks cleanest?
 
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