I agree that 400 slugs can be retardedly expensive by KB. Turning a 440 crank down may be cheaper LOL. Then theres balance. I don't know what'll take to balance that all up.
Thinking of going BB...
- Thread starter Sinister.
- Start date
-
If he uses a steel crank, balancing will be almost the minimal charge, cause the steel ones are already internally balanced. Won't take much to get it back there again. Cause you gotta remove what it is.....250" from the counterweights, I think. certainly that would affect balance. But not as much as balancin an externally balanced pig to an internally balanced shaft. I don't know about you, but my opinion is internally balancin is the only way to go on a performance engine. I think the short blocks would be about the same to build. It's the head work that'll kill you. I mean, let's face it, it would best to use some kinda slick, alloy head with all the bells and whistles. But if you play it right and choose parts wisely, you can save a substantial amount doing a lot of the work yourself. Ask me how i know. LOL I've HAD to do it in order to be able TO do it, if that makes sense.
Are you close to Georgia? If so, I have an extra set of 452 heads. I will clean um up, and see if the guides and seats and valves are good. If they are.....and I think they are, I'll lap the valves in for you and you can have them for a set of them J heads. Pick you out a good valvespring and send them to me and I'll put um together for you. I aint gonna ship um, though. You'll have to come get um. LOL and I answered your crank question in the PM. Lastly, I have a set of the Hedman B body headers that are supposed to fit the A body. If they do, you can have some HP manifolds I have. I have the ones that will drop in the A body. The C body HP driver's side and the B body HP passenger side. I have about 50 bucks shipping tied up in those. If you can give me that, or an equal trade, that's all I ask.
Sounds about right.
For the cost of the KB 400cid slugs and a balanceing, he could be up and running quick and cheap (Except pistons cost. What was it?)
The extra work of the crank can depend on cost. It is a widely vaiable cost. Just things like where you live, one machinest vs. another, material of crank, int. vs ext. balance. Machining journals down. etc..
While it COULD be done cheaply, I've never done the homework on it. Fast01 ditched his 451 w/cast crank in a heart beat flat and redid his entire engine over. The 451 set up is collecting dust right now. (Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...evil thoughts.....)
This is exactly right. I can get a balance done for 250 plus the cost of Mallory metal. That's dirt cheap compared to some of the other charges I've seen around the country. I don't get it. It's the same job whether you're in tinbucktoo of Macon, Georgia. It just doesn't make sense. Also, unless you're in a big hurry, i recommend just waiting until you can afford what you really want. Nuthin worse than havin a beer one night wishin you had built somethin else instead. I can surely see trying to internally balance a cast crank getting expensive because of all the metal involved.....but it can be done. I've done it. I did it with three stroker small blocks with that cast steel crank. Was a touch over 300 each time. I am just going to do my stuff one system at a time. Crank work, then the rods, then the block. A cam bearing tool you can use for damn near any engine ain't but about 150 bucks. You can install your own cam bearings and some for friends and make up the cost for the tool real quick. then you got that to do it yourself. Freeze plugs and oil gallery plug installation could literally be taught to a chimp. Just like basic cylinder head work. heck, maybe I need to document my build in a thread here and show yall how I do it. Might be good to show that you don't need a machine shop for every single thing. It'll probably be a while before I assemble, but I'll be glad to do it.
That's exactly why I asked about 3 angle valve job, we've got the machine to do it. Already own a cam bearing tool too. I've got a hone, but I'm not sure I'll want to use that if the bores are very rough to start with. Plus I'm comfortable assembling everything from head to toe myself, so that'll save a buck or two.
I think I'm going to see how much those guys want for the 440's... I know for a fact that at one point one of them was a 440/727 and I really don't think he was wanting much. If I can get that then I could part it or resell it for a bit of a profit to help fund this project.
By no means am I trying to rush this. This is just the collect information phase, then I'll start actually collecting parts when I can strike a good deal. Speaking of good deals, unfortunately, I'm in Kansas. I'm not sure the drive to GA would be worth it or possible given time constraints. I appreciate the offer though. We'll see about the manifolds later down the road.
Well I rolled the motor out of the shed last night and into the garage for inspection/tear down. Let me just say... I'm glad I'm still a young lad. We literally picked the 400 straight up off the ground by hand, and set it on a cart to wheel it to the garage.
Anyways, it's a '72 400. Crank is extremely clean so it may be sold. It's obvious that it's a high mile engine by the step on the tops of the cylinders and the discoloration on the bottoms of the pistons. It's also obvious which cylinders had valves open. Some of the cylinders are VERY nice, while others are rusted and have **** caked on them pretty bad (SHOULD be able to clean up.) While removing the pile of parts from the top of the 400 I discovered a BB crank.. but I'm not sure if it's mopar
The 400 had erg.. I forgot what heads... 3xx maybe... I'll look when I go back over today. I also found a set of 906 heads that look decent. Even the cam was decent on the 400... the only thing that I found that was obviously wrong, was the fact that the cam/crank timing gears were missing..... several teeth. I literally took the timing chain off BEFORE I took the gears off...
Since we got a big of rain I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get the 383/727 this weekend. But I am going to try to get more information on the 440's.
Anyways, it's a '72 400. Crank is extremely clean so it may be sold. It's obvious that it's a high mile engine by the step on the tops of the cylinders and the discoloration on the bottoms of the pistons. It's also obvious which cylinders had valves open. Some of the cylinders are VERY nice, while others are rusted and have **** caked on them pretty bad (SHOULD be able to clean up.) While removing the pile of parts from the top of the 400 I discovered a BB crank.. but I'm not sure if it's mopar
The 400 had erg.. I forgot what heads... 3xx maybe... I'll look when I go back over today. I also found a set of 906 heads that look decent. Even the cam was decent on the 400... the only thing that I found that was obviously wrong, was the fact that the cam/crank timing gears were missing..... several teeth. I literally took the timing chain off BEFORE I took the gears off...Since we got a big of rain I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get the 383/727 this weekend. But I am going to try to get more information on the 440's.
Got some more work done today. Down to bare block and a little nervous. After doing a little cleaning, I found little pitting in the cylinder walls. After measuring, I think they should clean up find with a .020 overbore. The heads from the 400 are 346's.
http://img707.imageshack.us/i/09252010186.jpg/
As for the mystery crank. It is mopar for sure, though it looks a little strange. There are NO markings except for a "2" on one of the throws. The main journals measured to be the same as a 383 or 400. 383 forged crank perhaps?
http://img375.imageshack.us/i/09252010187.jpg/
Sorry for the poor quality..
http://img707.imageshack.us/i/09252010186.jpg/
As for the mystery crank. It is mopar for sure, though it looks a little strange. There are NO markings except for a "2" on one of the throws. The main journals measured to be the same as a 383 or 400. 383 forged crank perhaps?
http://img375.imageshack.us/i/09252010187.jpg/
Sorry for the poor quality..
Plik
Ragin Cajun
Cool man, hopefully the block checks out.
...........Just buy a crank from 440 source, it will drop rite in as its made for the 451 application...........kim.........
Plik
Ragin Cajun
or just get the whole stroker kit....
Where did you see a crank that would drop right in?
I would love to just buy a stroker kit. Unfortunately, from what I can find, they are $2K. With a budget of 2K, that leaves $0 for, gaskets, bearings, cam, pushrods, lifters, etc.
I would love to just buy a stroker kit. Unfortunately, from what I can find, they are $2K. With a budget of 2K, that leaves $0 for, gaskets, bearings, cam, pushrods, lifters, etc.
Yeah, ask um if they're gonna buy you a crank or stroker kit. Geez, this whole thread is about budget buildin. duhhhhhhh
Oh...the 440 source crank is 700 bucks.
I'm finding the same number... but is that to the specifications that I want? or would it still need to be turned down? I need to get in contact with my machinist to see how much he'll charge to do some of these jobs.
Also I talked to one of the guys with one of the 440's. It's a runner but it's cast crank and he wants $300 which to me, seems a little high.
He did say that once he can get out to his shop (he's having back problems) he will look to see if he has any forged cranks and let me know.
If yo can get the 440's, gettem Find out now. Nothing like cubes!
If you can get the 383 free, use the crank out of it in the 400 and get 400 slugs, balance it and go from there.
OH! 2G's aint enuff, but get your shortblock in order and done right, you can allways upgrade other parts from there. Once you have a good solid foundation!!!!!!!!!!
I just hope some of them are decent priced. What should I expect to pay for a running/nonrunning 440?
I'm getting the 383/727 no matter what. So many possibly valuable parts there to use or sell. Wouldn't the 383 crank need work as well for it to fit?
No, it's really not, but its what I've got for now. And that is the plan. I'm definitely going to run iron heads and may stick with manifolds for now.
If the 440 is in decent shape, buy it and throw a mild cam in it with lifters and springs and a new timing set . A complete rebuild on any of those engines , even built barely hotter than stock, will eat up your entire $2000 budget.
Well then... since everything has reverted to the 27th, I may as well post this again.
I'm considering spending all/most of my budget solely on the rotating assembly. By focusing on one specific area at a time I believe I can end up with a better package than if I bought lower quality/performance parts, for less.
I am considering reusing the cam since it looks to be in reasonable shape. Are there negative side effects to doing this? If I reused it, I would not have to purchase another cam, lifter, push rods and bearing, yet.
For heads I could easily use the 346s, or the 906s. Both look to be in good condition. Later on as money finds it's way to my pocket, upgrading to aluminum heads will become a possibility.
For exhaust manifolds, I think I can obtain a cheap set of logs for MUCH less than the cost of headers. This is going to hinder performance quite a bit, but the engine will still run. At a later date I intend to upgrade to headers.
Opinions on this?
I'm considering spending all/most of my budget solely on the rotating assembly. By focusing on one specific area at a time I believe I can end up with a better package than if I bought lower quality/performance parts, for less.
I am considering reusing the cam since it looks to be in reasonable shape. Are there negative side effects to doing this? If I reused it, I would not have to purchase another cam, lifter, push rods and bearing, yet.
For heads I could easily use the 346s, or the 906s. Both look to be in good condition. Later on as money finds it's way to my pocket, upgrading to aluminum heads will become a possibility.
For exhaust manifolds, I think I can obtain a cheap set of logs for MUCH less than the cost of headers. This is going to hinder performance quite a bit, but the engine will still run. At a later date I intend to upgrade to headers.
Opinions on this?
If it's a flat tappet cam, I don't recommend it. I know the concensus from the experts is that you can run a used flat tappet cam with new lifters, but cams are cheap. I never have taken the chance. Certainly doesn't mean it cannot be done. A roller of course can be used again and again.
Oh, and if you've not read this, you need to bookmark it.
http://www.arengineering.com/articles/articleframe.html
Good stuff there. You'll not regret spending your budget on the 451.
http://www.arengineering.com/articles/articleframe.html
Good stuff there. You'll not regret spending your budget on the 451.
I wasn't even planning on using new lifters. Even though at the time of disassembly, I didn't plan on reusing cam, I still marked everything. In my head it'd seem fine to reuse the entire cam system since nothing changed.
I have read it... multiple times
Thanks for the link though.
-
