JOSS ENGINES W2 468ci. What will it make??

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With the 2.02 valve, I think they flowed 300 cfm at .600 and like 305 at .650. Not sure. They are not a full race port. They were ported nicely, with alot of detail work but not a huge port, I think avg. csa was 2.5" ish.
I just made 620HP on 10.9:1 with a 4" crank and heads that flow over 300cfm but only accessed 280's.
There's alot more to "accessing" flow than just cam, compression and flow. The whole engine and it's components must work together in the same basic rpm range or you'll leave power on the table.

Kenny, an Indy intake with my cnc 4500 opening and a 1050 dominator would be worth around 30-40 HP on that engine!
I'm very interested in the outcome of your project!! At least your having fun with it!!!!

Brian
 
StrokerValiant said:
Maybe "a grain of salt" isn't the best way to put it. I have the flow numbers, and I am happy with them, because I know the head is a proven head. You also have to remember these flow numbers are being created with a constant dry flow... That does not show what they head will do on an engine, which is a cycled, wet flow. What the head does on the flow bench does not directly convert into HP. You can have a head that flows like gang busters, but if the CSA is way off for the engine, it isn't going to work very well.

The flow bench is a good tool to help make a head work, but at the end of the day, it is the total engine design that needs to be right.

Is this engine the ideal combo? No, it really should have a bigger head, and bigger header, and a converter, and gears etc.... But I am using the parts I have, kind of makes it more fun to try and guess what it will make. Or at least that's what I am telling myself. haha.

1wild&crazyguy, I appreciate the interest you have in my project, and the tech talk. I am not trying to be snappy or anything either if it is coming across that way.
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Yes indeed.

I know, you dont seem snappy at all, we're just bouncing it back and forth for the sake of insight and a multi angled view....and hey...we take this stuff seriously :salut:

You're right about liquid/air density in a cycling engine, then figure the heat mixed in.
As for the csa, yep..that would effect the rpm capabilty and yeah if the cam was bigger than sht...it would be a bad combo that would be shorting itself on a lot of power, let alone usable power.lol

I dig what yer doing though.:thumrigh:
 
ou812 said:
With the 2.02 valve, I think they flowed 300 cfm at .600 and like 305 at .650. Not sure. They are not a full race port. They were ported nicely, with alot of detail work but not a huge port, I think avg. csa was 2.5" ish.
I just made 620HP on 10.9:1 with a 4" crank and heads that flow over 300cfm but only accessed 280's.
There's alot more to "accessing" flow than just cam, compression and flow. The whole engine and it's components must work together in the same basic rpm range or you'll leave power on the table.

Kenny, an Indy intake with my cnc 4500 opening and a 1050 dominator would be worth around 30-40 HP on that engine!
I'm very interested in the outcome of your project!! At least your having fun with it!!!!

Brian
Click to expand...

Agreed Brian, I think I will go to the indy intake when I go to the W5's later on down the road (For those of you that don't know me, I seem to have an issue with leaving a combo alone. haha.)


1wild&crazyguy said:
Yes indeed.

I know, you dont seem snappy at all, we're just bouncing it back and forth for the sake of insight and a multi angled view....and hey...we take this stuff seriously :salut:

You're right about liquid/air density in a cycling engine, then figure the heat mixed in.
As for the csa, yep..that would effect the rpm capabilty and yeah if the cam was bigger than sht...it would be a bad combo that would be shorting itself on a lot of power, let alone usable power.lol

I dig what yer doing though.:thumrigh:
Click to expand...

Sounds good! I am quite excited to see what happens with this thing!

-Kenny
 
Well, we were able to take some time yesterday to spend on the engine. We installed the main bearings, and started checking piston to valve clearance. Now, these are Econo W2's which are 54cc. You may wonder, why such small chambers. A regular Econo has basically a stock open chamber. These heads have been cut .100" which has made them into a closed 54cc chamber. It is kind of a catch 22. The chambers are a lot better now, but piston to valve can become an issue. And it is in this case. Luckily it is pretty close, so, we are going to cut another .040" out of the valve reliefs. Here are some pictures from yesterday....


Main bearings in...

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Setting the crank in and bolting it down...

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Number 1 rod and piston at TDC...

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Cylinder head on with soft springs and valve train in place on number 1...

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Now, one other thing to note, the W2 Econo head is a 59 degree head. Here is some pictures of the modification needed to run them on the 48 degree block. Things get tight, but it works.

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Planning to have the pistons cut on Monday, and then we will continue with the assembly.

-Kenny
 
Kenny, before you cut the pistons, is that with the cam advanced 2°? If so, stick it in straight up and recheck. You don't need any advance in that cam....

That's a big F#@K'n cam!!
 
Also what is the actual clearance? I have small chamber W5's that have been cut .055. I had to move the cam around but I got .063 intake and .084 exhaust which is plenty. It's more than my old short block had. It was .058 int and .078 exhaust.
 
Yes Brian, it is a good size cam, IIRC you picked it. Haha. There really is no way around cutting the pistons a bit. I have roughly .040" clearance on both intake and exhaust. If I move the cam either way, it will help one and hurt the other.

Guitar Jones, if I could get those clearances I would be happy too.

-Kenny
 
StrokerValiant said:
Yes Brian, it is a good size cam, IIRC you picked it. Haha. There really is no way around cutting the pistons a bit. I have roughly .040" clearance on both intake and exhaust. If I move the cam either way, it will help one and hurt the other.

Guitar Jones, if I could get those clearances I would be happy too.

-Kenny
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Where is the piston in relation to the deck? Gasket thickness? Lash your figuring? Checking P/V clearance with checking springs or actual springs you'll run?
 
The engine is zero deck, We were checking with out rings on the piston, gasket is a .040" cometic, lash is .020"/.022" and we are using light spring. I am not using putty to check either, I am using a dial micrometer.
 
StrokerValiant said:
The engine is zero deck, We were checking with out rings on the piston, gasket is a .040" cometic, lash is .020"/.022" and we are using light spring. I am not using putty to check either, I am using a dial micrometer.
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I would check with rings, use a .048 gasket, .025 lash, and check with actual springs. You'll have enough P/V clearance like that. You don't need a tight quench with race gas and 13:1.
Brian
 
I was planning on running a 50/50 mix with race gas and pump gas. Haha. We will have to see what it wants when it's on the dyno I guess. Another set of cometics would be another two weeks away from me. I want to drive the car this weekend. That may be a little far fetched at this point. Another .040" out of the pistons will only cost me maybe $100 and they will be done for tomorrow if need be. We measured the pistons, and there is enough meat to carve another .040" out.

Should have plenty of room when the W5's go on! If only the good rocker gear wasn't so expensive, It would probably be getting them right now.
 
StrokerValiant said:
I was planning on running a 50/50 mix with race gas and pump gas. Haha. We will have to see what it wants when it's on the dyno I guess. Another set of cometics would be another two weeks away from me. I want to drive the car this weekend. That may be a little far fetched at this point. Another .040" out of the pistons will only cost me maybe $100 and they will be done for tomorrow if need be. We measured the pistons, and there is enough meat to carve another .040" out.

Should have plenty of room when the W5's go on! If only the good rocker gear wasn't so expensive, It would probably be getting them right now.
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If you shape the chambers of those W5's for flow, they'll be huge! So you'll be milling them down a bunch as well.
Anymore, I make the chambers large and use small dish or flattop pistons most of the time. I've found that milling the heads alot sucks and makes for a ton of problems that are very hard to work around at times.
I would still check with clay, rings and actual springs and .025 lash before I cut the pistons...JMO!
 
Yeah, time was not on our side, I had the pistons cut another .040" in the valve reliefs. They look like they were cut like that from the factory. I knew I would probably run into this problem. Knowing that, We asked Ross to cut DEEP reliefs in the pistons. Apparently they didn't go deep enough. The material was there to do so, not really sure why they ignored our request.

The W5's when done, will lower the compression down, which is what I want anyway, it is just a little street car. I need something to get groceries in. If gas prices keep going up, I will need to be able to run it on regular fuel anyway. haha.

Hopefully tonight after work we can put some time in on the engine and get it on it's way together. Gotta be driving it on the weekend. LOL.
 
A little update for everyone....

We have been really busy with customer stuff with this huge car weekend happening this weekend, so we have put this engine on the back burner until next week. It will be going on to the engine dyno now instead of straight into the car. On the dyno it will have the 1-7/8" A-body Hedman hustler Headers.

I also have another set of F-Body headers that are 1-7/8 Hedman Hustler Headers that need a bunch of modification to actually fit in an F-body. These will most likely be modified and used in the car instead of the 1-3/4" headers.
 
when your on the pump, try tight lash first like .015 or so....then try going up on exhaust first to maybe .025 or .030 and see if it picks up power. If so, try the intake a little bit and see if it picks up or not.
 
A little update,

The heads are on, and we are modifying the intake to clear the top of the lifters and lifter tie bars. The edelbrock intake dips down above the lifter valley. This is where the interference is. You can turn the lifters around, just as you would in a 59 degree block, BUT then you need to mill out part of the block. Hard to explain in words, but I will try to get a picture showing the part of the block that would need to be milled off.

2e9cf78c.jpg


On the inlet of the R3 for a dry sump set up, We will be plumbing in a 3 liter oil accumulator....

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cutting the intake to clear the lifters...

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Thanks for tuning in!

-Kenny
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
Roller lifter in a la are fun huh?

I know my 59* stuff takes all kinds of grinding to the push rod tubes and to the rear portion of the valley.
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Oh yes! I never had to grind the pushrod holes on my 59 degree stuff. But I used J heads, and then these W2's last. A friend of mine had a twin 434 to mine but with a cammando head on it, it needed some clearancing. Those Cammandos were pretty bad. They flowed terrible, nothing seemed to be machined well on them, and they weren't that cheap once the issues were fixed.
 
StrokerValiant said:
Oh yes! I never had to grind the pushrod holes on my 59 degree stuff. But I used J heads, and then these W2's last. A friend of mine had a twin 434 to mine but with a cammando head on it, it needed some clearancing. Those Cammandos were pretty bad. They flowed terrible, nothing seemed to be machined well on them, and they weren't that cheap once the issues were fixed.
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Thats odd, they hit by the cover side and underneathe towards the chamber side and at a point in the lift they hit the entire valve side of the push rod tubes...and they are J heads with morrel solid roller lifters
 
1wild&crazyguy said:
Thats odd, they hit by the cover side and underneathe towards the chamber side and at a point in the lift they hit the entire valve side of the push rod tubes...and they are J heads with morrel solid roller lifters
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Hmm.... Maybe the lifter made the difference. I was using a Comp lifter. Never seen it touching, no marks on the push rods, or push rods bending.

If I did another 59 degree solid roller, I would use Brian's lifters. In fact, I sold one set to a customer last year I believe. He is using them in a 59 degree R3 along with a set of IndyBrocks.
 
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