3G Hemi fuel: EFI vs Carb

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Not a 3g HEMI but when/if I ever get to it I will be going EFI on a 2g HEMI. My intake has all the plumbing internally which has caused more than one person to utter the comment how it will restrict airflow hurting power. Richard at Fastman EFI built my manifold, from what he has told me that in my case the EFI will make slightly more power than a if I were going with carbs, provided that egt temps on each cylinder are monitored while tuning. Reason for this is because of the fact that I will be able to dial each cylinder in individually. Question is, how much $$ do you want to spend??
 

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One last thing- the 3G hemi is special because of the heads. 5.7 & 6.1 & 6.4 apache heads can all flow upwards of 360 cfm @ .600 lift on the intake with porting work, and the flow numbers at lower lifts outperform just about anything, LSx motors included. If they're ported right, the velocity numbers will stay up as well. That's what makes the hemi special, not EFI. But, the factory EFI intakes have limits. The 5.7 has intake has great low end, up to ~5700. The 6.1 gives up 5-10 hp down low to the 5.7 intake, but surpasses it at 5700 and is good through 6400 or so (power will still be made above it, but there are better options above 6400). For peak power above 6400, you'll want a drag pack intake, but you'll give up 20-30 hp on the low end.
 
As probably the only person that has actually had both on a 3G Hemi in my car I can't deny that I really like my EFI setup, but at the same time the ease of the carb was hard to beat. I got the engine up and running within a day with a carb once the engine was in, just have to get fuel to the bowls and power to the MSD and it lit up just fine. This was also the easiest starting carb I've ever seen. I have a 71 Vette that never likes to start and keep running, can't figure out the choke or something. Even when it's hot out it doesn't like to run for a while until you've gotten down the road a bit. The Carter that was on the 318 ran like clockwork every time I turned the key and ran just as good on the Hemi. Started real easy and barely even needed to warm up. I could turn the key and drive the car within a minute without any problems, never seen that in a carb before. The one problem I had was I didn't have the tuning parts or dyno availability around here to tune the carb for max potential. I don't doubt that a carb will make even power with EFI when tuned right, gas is gas when it's in the cylinder and if you look around the net you'll find lots of professional racers saying that for max power it's marginal if noticeable at all on the difference.

The main benefit to EFI is the self adjusting nature. For instance, I live in Kansas. The weather here is best determined by flipping a coin instead of listening to a forecast. We've had winters in the single digits, summers in the 100+ range, and I've seen days that have had 30-50 degree swings over the course of 12 hours or less. A carb will run best for the exact conditions it is set up for. If the environment varies, you'll lose some power unless you retune it. However, unless you want your engine making max power all the time whenever you drive it, you probably won't care. If you're racing the car with a carb anyway, you're probably pretty likely to be tuning it at the track if you're that serious.

The one issue I had with my carb build was the nature of the 3G Hemi. It will sip fuel on cruise pretty gingerly, but when you romp on the gas it drinks it out of a bucket. I had a hard time trying to figure out if my carb even had the potential to cover that kind of range of fuel delivery. I was getting near the maximum range of jets and rods that were available for my carb. However, some other variety of carb may be able to handle this, I'm really not well versed on all the options out there.

Frankly speaking, if it weren't for the fact that I had a fuel injection system fall in my lap for a crazy deal, I'd probably still be running a carb. A carb swap ran me around $600 for the MSD and harness, $400 for the intake (XV and Mopar are just stupd on their pricing), and maybe $50 for a fuel pump (already had the carb). I didn't get a computer or factory harness with my engine. My fuel system alone when I went to EFI cost me that much (went with in tank pump because I drive the car fairly often and wanted a baffeld tank for that). $750 for a tank and a few hundred for all the line and fittings. Now add on an ECU and wiring and you're probably doubling that at least, so I really do think the carb swap is more affordable than people give it credit for.

One of the things I really like and hate about my EFI though is that I can do almost anything I want with it. It's an aftermarket system with tons of control (Megasquirt 2). I fought and fought trying to get it to run right when I first installed it. You get next to NO tune out of the box, so even finding a starting point to get the engine to run can be a challenge. Then you have to tune the whole map section by section and try to get the transitions right so that it runs smooth through the whole range. This is already built in to a carb for the most part, so you just have to change a jet and since you have fairly limited jet choices in comparison, you can get it dialed in a little easier, though maybe not as precisely. I spent tons of time just driving the car around, logging data, and messing with the map and ended up just flat out starting over before I finally got something I was happy with.

The main reason I even considered a Hemi swap to start with (aside from cool factor), is the potential in these engines. Sure, you can build an LA engine to make 450 hp, but how much do you have to spend to make that happen and how driveable is it? I considered three different options when I was planning my car, a smallblock stroker, a supercharged smallblock, and a "lightweight" bigblock. Was shooting for 450-500 hp in the long run and most of the builds came in around the same price. By the time I replaced the whole rotating assembly in a small block and put on good heads I was $5000 in. A supercharger kit was similarly priced on it's own plus any internal changes I wanted to make (seen some pretty nasty builds on stock parts though). A big block wasn't significantly cheaper, but way heavier unless I went with a lot of pricey aluminum pieces. The hemi swap added up around that same price, but in the end I actually came in under that, even with the engine and machine work. Not to mention stock 5.7 heads flow almost as good as fully done LA heads. Put on $2000 in ported heads and a cam and the 5.7 cranks 450 easy all day on stock internals and doesn't drive any different than it does untouched. Not to mention these engines appear to last a long time. My engine claimed to have 60k miles and was out of a police car that was probably driven pretty hard since it dropped a valve seat (think it likely cooked a head). Even with that punishment my bearings looked brand new and I reused them without any problems. The cylinders still had the cross hatch on them as well and no ridge that I could find. The thing also runs glass smooth once I got it dialed in, can barely tell the engine is running going down the highway.

Long story short there are plenty of reasons to go with the newer technology inside the engine, even if you don't use all the technology available on the outside. I did my whole swap with bolt on parts, the only piece I had to modify was to trim the input shaft on my trans (833). Didn't have to touch a panel or weld anything together to make it fit. Personally I don't like the look of single barrel throttle bodies on old cars, they just look silly to me because the cars aren't set up to run an intake tube straight out of the front of the engine, it looks out of place. I have a carb style throttle body on mine because of the intake I have and I think it's pretty cool. It keeps that old style look and even the old style sound of a set of secondaries opening up. Stand on the gas and you can hear the thing sucking through the hood scoop from inside the car.

To each his own though, I just like seeing these cars get back on the road, regardless of what's powering them I'll drool on them when I see them. I'm frequently about the only Mopar at any of the cars shows I go to. Lots of people don't even know what kind of car it is since the only badge it had was a Dodge logo (got some Hemi badges now too). I had one group of kids think it was a Nova and that "it looked just like one" but it had a Dodge badge on it so it couldn't be. Even when I tell people it's a Dart they just kind of look at me like, "what's a Dart?". It's even more fun when I pop the hood now. It looks like it has a carb with the throttle body, but it has fuel rails as well. They also try to figure out where the distributor went, lol.
 
Yeah, they were "limited" to the Ford EEC IV mass air setup, which may not be as good as DFI or the new FAST stuff, but there are plenty of 1,000 hp cars running it, and the carbs weren't just a little bit faster either...

When the theory don't match the results, get a new theory! LOL



Manufacturers got rid of the carbs to meet EPA smog standards and for mileage purposes. Performance had zero to do with it, and they adopted EFI long before it got good. Further, modern hot-rod carburetors are a lot better for reliability and driveability than the factory stuff ever was.

Potato/potatoe. They're both a waste of time and money. Pick the waste you like best!

I'll just say that i completely disagree with all of that and will never choose to put a carb on any engine that has a good efi system in place(such as a hemi)

Why step backwards into crap?

And more specific to the hemi, didnt someone have a carb'd hemi that only made like 280whp after all was said and done. Clearly a carb was not superior in that case.
 
I think the 280 hp engine was a magazine (Car Craft maybe?) crate motor swap straight from Mopar complete with their crappy intake. Although once you figure in the drivetrain losses you aren't really doing all that bad. A 20% loss puts 280 rwhp at 350 at the crank which is pretty close to what it's rated to make anyway. The Mopar and XV carb intakes are pretty reknowned for cutting horsepower bad, not necessarily the carb's fault. The Indy intake has been dyno tested with headers and a TBI system (essentially a well tuned carb that adjusts on it's own, but distributes fuel at the same location) at 400 crank horsepower, but I've never seen a straight comparison between the carb and EFI versions of it (exactly what I did on my car) which is what I would really like to see. I've not heard numbers on a stock type Edelbrock dual carb setup either, HemiJoeJr was about the only one I've seen use it so far and he's not exactly stock.
 
Reason for this is because of the fact that I will be able to dial each cylinder in individually. Question is, how much $$ do you want to spend??

Its true, but you can accomplish a lot of the same net result with a digital 7 ignition box by doing individual cylinder timing.

Its probably cheaper than the EFI, but you still have to spend the time on the dyno dialing it in.
 
Says the guy with the 40 year old car...

LOL

I'd love to compare my carbed Magnum to EFI magnums and see where we stand as far as horsepower production.

touche', but i'm only in a 40yr old car because I'm in california. I didnt wanna deal with the headache of doing a 3rd gen camaro/foxbody and deal with smog....err smog techs specifically(douchebags in my experience)

And we may be able to test that magnum engine idea that if i cant fix the issues with my crap carb setup. We have somewhat similar engine setups(i have less cam) and if i cant fix the carb, i'm springing for efi.

As of now my carb with its "awesome reliability and drivability" is getting 6-7mpg. :banghead:
 
just a small question bacause it seems to go kinda rough here. Do you guys have no problems with officials, car inspections and such thinks? Can you do what you wanna do to your cars??
The officials here would never make my car street legal. Even with a carbed Hemi I have a cheater now. That was my main reason. Have a modern engine, perfect for long fast Autobahn rides. I'd love to go injected with my 6.1 but it's simply not allowed... :-( Or I have to pay 2000 USD taxes every year like for a modern car.....
But I'm on the other side of the atlantic... LOL not your prob....
 
Well I've got my complete intake,throttle body,wiring harness,computer from the 06 Durango if anyone is interested,I'll put the money towards my Pro-charger.Good luck with your 5.7 swap out's boy's--Steve
 
just a small question bacause it seems to go kinda rough here. Do you guys have no problems with officials, car inspections and such thinks? Can you do what you wanna do to your cars??
The officials here would never make my car street legal. Even with a carbed Hemi I have a cheater now. That was my main reason. Have a modern engine, perfect for long fast Autobahn rides. I'd love to go injected with my 6.1 but it's simply not allowed... :-( Or I have to pay 2000 USD taxes every year like for a modern car.....
But I'm on the other side of the atlantic... LOL not your prob....

Most of our older cars arent really regulated. Some states subject them to safety inspections others do not(ie: ca)

Its kinda strange that they're ok with your 6.1 carb'd, but not efi? Wouldnt they want the older cars to have more efficiency?
 
just a small question bacause it seems to go kinda rough here. Do you guys have no problems with officials, car inspections and such thinks? Can you do what you wanna do to your cars??
The officials here would never make my car street legal. Even with a carbed Hemi I have a cheater now. That was my main reason. Have a modern engine, perfect for long fast Autobahn rides. I'd love to go injected with my 6.1 but it's simply not allowed... :-( Or I have to pay 2000 USD taxes every year like for a modern car.....
But I'm on the other side of the atlantic... LOL not your prob....

your the exception. those are some stupid *** rules you have over there. most of us are talking normal places where we can run injection with out the hassles you have.
 
I haven't finished my swap yet, but I do have a 6.1L Hemi sitting on a stand, and Megasquirt 3 ECM in a drawer in the living room, so I have done A LOT of research, and have put my money where my mouth is, so to speak.

First Thought: The old rule was that a carbureted motor would make more peak HP but injected motor might make as much power under the curve and be more streetable. Personally, I think with modern sequential port injection and the right tuning those days are largely gone. The atomization of fuel from the carb might cool the intake charge slightly and bring the HP numbers up, but EFI has the benefit of not having an air restriction on the intake. Basically carbs need a pressure drop across them in order for fuel to be drawn into the motor. Thus, ALL carbs are a restriction on the intake to some degree. EFI doesn't have this disadvantage, so while some guys are running 650 CFM or 750 CFM carbs, I am able to easily run an 1100 CFM throttle body and have BETTER throttle response. Thus, the days of carbs having a large HP advantage over EFI are history.

Second Thought: Cams, yes if you are running the factory ECM you really need to choose your camshaft carefully, as modern EFI systems either use a MAF or MAP sensors that try to determine the actual amount of air going into the engine. HOWEVER, if you are running a fully programmable aftermarket ECM you can engage an Alpha-N mode. This mode basically turns off the MAP sensor and the ECM simply uses air temp, water temp, RPM and throttle position to determine how much fuel to send to the engine. Obviously tuning in this situation is much more difficult, but for those running radical cams, or Individual Throttle Bodies, this might be the best way to tune the engine. So you can have a really radical cam and fuel injection, but just like a carb, it might be more difficult to get the tune just right.

Third Thought: I have been a proponent of fuel injection from day one. That being said, getting a modern fuel injected hemi to run in an A-Body can be a challenge, particularly if you use the factory ECM. Some people have no problem, they buy or modify a harness, put the motor in the car and drive the snot out of it happier than a pig in ****.

Others have error codes that prop up, and still other end up for some unknown reason in limp mode. I still don't know anyone who has gotten an 2010 5.7 or later motor running in A-Body with the factory ECM, though I could be wrong. Which is too bad because the 09 and later 5.7 heads are worth about 30-40 CFM over the 03-08 5.7 Heads and flow nearly equal to the 6.1L Heads.

Even those who go with the FAST, Megasquirt, or AEM systems have their own learning curve to deal with. Tuning can be a real challenge particularly if you've never tuned a car with a laptop. On another A-Body website a guy who installed a FAST system ended up spending about 2K to 3K just to get the system dialed in, though that did include quite a bit of dyno time.

Fourth: I won't say some people need to lighten up. Why? Because every person I've ever told to "lighten up," has simply gotten even more pissed off at me. But I will say this, I've learned so much from this and a few other websites that even with the occasional name calling it is well worth the effort. For example, I've seen the full page ads for some Hemi parts. There were lots of good articles about how cool their parts were in all the mopar magazines. Then low and behold I come on a few boards like FABO and get the real story. Parts that don't fit. Parts that need to be returned. Companies that don't stand behind their product.

Fifth: I would like to see some deliberate collection of specific instructions to help people with the swap. For example, for Megasquirt your engine profile, your tune, is a .msq file. I'd like to see some of these shared. Not that it would be the exact tune you'd need, but it might be close enough to get someone going. I'd like to see some FAST tunes shared as well, and some AEMs. For the carb guys I'd like to see some specific recommendations on jetting, metering rods, and accelerator pump sizing. Why because this engine swap is hard, and the magazines don't give us information other than a sales brochure for solution that only costs X amount of dollars.

Sixth: Why do the swap. I've seen people say, "I can get just as much power out of a small block." I'm sure you can, but when I'm done I'll have a 500HP motor that will idle like a grandmas car; while, a 500 HP small block mopar is a beast. Oh, yeah, and I can say, it's got a hemi.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
If I were going to run a carb I would have just stroked a 360 and avoided the hassle of a hemi swap. So, why am I doing the hemi swap? I picked up a low mileage 05 5.7 truck engine and trans for $2000. I think that is pretty low cost for 350+ horsepower and an ovedrive trans and great driveability. Yeah I had to do a lot of fab and wiring work, but that is what I enjoy and there is little cost other than my time. I have a Duster because of the way it looks, but otherwise I prefer modern over 30+ year old technology. I really enjoy my 04 Durango with a hemi. If I had the cash I'd be driving a new Challenger. I want to be able to drive my car whenever and wherever I choose without tuning or adjustment being needed for optimum performance.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that NASCAR has even moved to EFI.
 
If I were going to run a carb I would have just stroked a 360 and avoided the hassle of a hemi swap. So, why am I doing the hemi swap? I picked up a low mileage 05 5.7 truck engine and trans for $2000. I think that is pretty low cost for 350+ horsepower and an ovedrive trans and great driveability. Yeah I had to do a lot of fab and wiring work, but that is what I enjoy and there is little cost other than my time. I have a Duster because of the way it looks, but otherwise I prefer modern over 30+ year old technology. I really enjoy my 04 Durango with a hemi. If I had the cash I'd be driving a new Challenger. I want to be able to drive my car whenever and wherever I choose without tuning or adjustment being needed for optimum performance.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned that NASCAR has even moved to EFI.

Maybe because people only take notice of what happens in good motorsports?
 
@ Magnumdust:
The 6.1 is not allowed at all in my car. A car with historic plates has to run an historic engine. Minimum 20 years old. In this case a SB. As I said already my car is a cheater right now. I try to make the 6.1 appear like a SB with modern aftermarket parts in case the police stops my or for the inspection we have every 2 years ... ;-)
 
@ Magnumdust:
The 6.1 is not allowed at all in my car. A car with historic plates has to run an historic engine. Minimum 20 years old. In this case a SB. As I said already my car is a cheater right now. I try to make the 6.1 appear like a SB with modern aftermarket parts in case the police stops my or for the inspection we have every 2 years ... ;-)

That's crazy....

In Michigan, we are not subjected to any inspections whether for safety or smog/emissions. I can title my car with historic, regular or vanity plates and they don't care. I can put a new engine, or an old engine in and.....you guessed it, they don't care.

Now, if you put a new engine in, you can't use historic plates correct? And if you're not using historic plates, you have to pay $2000 for a "modern vehicle tax?" So, if you drove a modern vehicle over there, would you still have to pay the tax?
 
Well I've got my complete intake,throttle body,wiring harness,computer from the 06 Durango if anyone is interested,I'll put the money towards my Pro-charger.Good luck with your 5.7 swap out's boy's--Steve

Your not doing the swap anymore?
 
Fifth: I would like to see some deliberate collection of specific instructions to help people with the swap. For example, for Megasquirt your engine profile, your tune, is a .msq file. I'd like to see some of these shared. Not that it would be the exact tune you'd need, but it might be close enough to get someone going. I'd like to see some FAST tunes shared as well, and some AEMs. For the carb guys I'd like to see some specific recommendations on jetting, metering rods, and accelerator pump sizing. Why because this engine swap is hard, and the magazines don't give us information other than a sales brochure for solution that only costs X amount of dollars.

I would have loved information like this when I was starting. I never was convinced I could tune my carb to work with my engine and the stock cam, but that's because I'd never tuned a carb before. I remember asking if anyone had some suggestions for jet sizes back before I had the engine in the car (may have been in the fuel and air thread instead of Hemi) and got nothing. Then, when I got the Megasquirt I was right back to square one all over again. Luckily there are some programs out there that will spit out a rough base map based on engine size and horsepower/torque ratings. If I wouldn't have found one of those my car would probably still run weird. My first go at it the engine ran fine, but there was still some vibration in the car. When I tried the new base map it was like a whole different car, glass smooth running down the road, I never even knew it could run like that. I think that may be one reason so many people are hesitant to do the swap. Sure I can bolt an engine in, but if I can't get it to run what's the point? If I knew there was a base map out there that could get me stock like performance that's one more reason to dive in and start the build.

I think it would be awesome if we started up a sticky thread of Hemi tunes. I know a few members have been kind enough to share some MSD ignition maps with me and I really appreciated it when I was having trouble figuring out some stumbling issues. I passed on what I had to another member who contacted me with a similar problem in the hope of getting his problem figured out.

I'd be happy to share my current Megasquirt tune for someone to use as a base map as well as my MSD map since I have a mostly stock engine. It would be really cool if the site here could host the files so we wouldn't have to worry about maintaining files on some file sharing service. There have been too many times I've gotten all excited because I finally thought I found a file I needed only to find out the link was busted and then trying to get a hold of the original poster to see if it was still out there somewhere. Start up a thread and try to really manage it to just be for info like a tech section. Post your engine specs and any tuning files you have for it like Megasquirt, FAST, MSD, factory PCM Diablo stuff, etc. I'll be the first to throw some files in if the mods would like to get something started.
 
If the forum won't host it, I'll be happy to host files for download on my site. I could easily make a specific page for them. I'm assuming they're not too big?
www.3gduster.com
 
I don't think they're very big, probably less than 1 mb since it's pretty much just a big formatted text file most of the time, but I'd have to double check. At the biggest I doubt they'd be over a few mb.

PS. That's a beautiful car Uhcoog, what color is that officially?
 
Someone has mentioned the nightmare of tuning a MS system. My project is a long ways away, and it will be a 2G HEMI. I am looking into the different brands of EFI. Right now I am leaning towards the FAST XFI for the simple fact that a certain individual has already provided me with a program, that if I remember right, was based on the rough parameters of what my build will be. Another member has offered to host programs on his site, perhaps I could talk to the "Boss" about a forum just for storing tunes?
 
Good idea to share some tunes here. I have 5.7 with FAST XFI and after I have get it on road and tuned, I can surely share. What about spark tables from MDS system, are those possible to read without specific program?
 
PS. That's a beautiful car Uhcoog, what color is that officially?

Thanks for the compliment! It's a PPG color- I picked it out of the PPG book. Not sure the color code, though!

If y'all can send me tune files, I'll gladly throw em up on the website for download. Also, if you can do some screenshots, I'll throw images up of timing curves, etc (print screen button, then edit>paste into paint, save as .jpg). That way those without the specific tuning software you are using can try and mimick it in what they are using.

The 3gduster.com site is my play site that is an add-on to my business account site. So as long as it doesn't eat up all my bandwidth, I'm good.

Shoot me a PM if you've got something you'd like to share, and I'll send you my email address.
 
That's crazy....

In Michigan, we are not subjected to any inspections whether for safety or smog/emissions. I can title my car with historic, regular or vanity plates and they don't care. I can put a new engine, or an old engine in and.....you guessed it, they don't care.

Now, if you put a new engine in, you can't use historic plates correct? And if you're not using historic plates, you have to pay $2000 for a "modern vehicle tax?" So, if you drove a modern vehicle over there, would you still have to pay the tax?

First, I don't wanna crah the thread.
But it is an interesting question. Put the Hemi in with injection means to pass the technical inspection every 2 years. Means to pass emission controls every 2 years (which are strict - need the catalytic converter on the car!!), means to make safety stuff modern like chassis and brakes. This is more than just a engine swap job. And tax is still high because taxes are measured on the engine displacement. Might be around 1000usd.
 
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