My 6.1 retrofit thread

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Wow that was great explanation of installing the pan gasket. I really like the step by step install including the little details that will ensure that the pan will not leak.

At one time, magazines like Hot Rod would give useful detailed information like this, today they give articles that say things like, "We took our project to Joe Smith at *** Racing and he put in a roll cage, here's a bunch of pictures that really won't tell you anything useful other than it is really important to take your car to a 'pro' like we did."

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Joe Dokes said:
Wow that was great explanation of installing the pan gasket. I really like the step by step install including the little details that will ensure that the pan will not leak.

At one time, magazines like Hot Rod would give useful detailed information like this, today they give articles that say things like, "We took our project to Joe Smith at *** Racing and he put in a roll cage, here's a bunch of pictures that really won't tell you anything useful other than it is really important to take your car to a 'pro' like we did."

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

Dont get me started on Magazine articles - I have a lot to say about the Milodon oil filter adapter that was "alleged" to work with the 6.1:protest:

More on that later...but lets just say I wasted $40 on a part that was NEVER going to work.....
 

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JD - I'll detail the issue with the milodon plate in a separate thread.

Here's part 1 of the cam install -

Performing a cam swap in a NEW Gen 3 CRATE Hemi is not hard –but there’s two important words in this statement….

They are NEW and in a CRATE.

What I mean by this is because its a crate motor, you can do this while the engine is out of the car – so that’s a big easy
Second – being new means the hyd roller lifters will do what they are supposed to do – and not interfere with the cam when it comes time to slide it out.

Lastly – be aware that this swap is being done with a mild cam where there will be no Piston to Valve clash to worry about – and no need to change valve springs or lifters. Also “degreeing” was done using the existing hyd roller lifter – so there are some small inaccuracies to be expected.

IMPORTANT - If you are unsure if there will be P-V issues, or you are running an old engine where the lifters may not “hang up” in the bores when you rotate the cam without pushrods…,then resign yourself to a “heads off” exercise.

So here we go:
1. – Remove the balancer (Damper) – relatively easy process with a three jaw puller – Inserted a 1/4” drive into the cam bolt socket to gve the centre rod of the puller something to work against..although any piece of rod or an undersized bolt will work.

2. – Remove the water transfer tubes – dead easy with one bolt, one nut per side and the end of the fitting into the front cover is O ringed press fit.

20121207_181121.jpg


3. – Remove the front cover – the only trick with this is to not forget that some of the water pump bolts also secure the front cover to the block.

Also there is a 6mm stud toward the top of the cover (The smaller of two studs) – that also needs to be removed as it goes through to the block.
20121207_191020.jpg


Removal of the front cover reveals the timing chain, cam trigger wheel and crank sprocket.

20121207_191032.jpg


4. – So now we have to remove the valve gear so we can slide the cam out without interference – so off come the valve covers.
Undo the coil pack retaining screws (two per pack) and simply pull the coil packs off – the sheaths that slide over the plugs are covered in die-electric grease so they simply slide off the plugs.

20121208_145035.jpg


5 - Then undo the valve cover studs and lift off the valve covers – these are also O ringed for your convenience!

20121208_145023.jpg


6 - Before removing the rocker gear and shafts – be aware:
- The shaft bolt locaters that the bolts snug down on are NOT to be removed.
- The pushrods for the intake side and exhaust side are different lengths.
- The rocker gear must not be interchanged

NOTE: - The push rod holes are all on the engine side of the corresponding shafts
20121208_150053.jpg


7 – Then we remove the plugs –
I’ve seen all sorts of ideas from people on how to lift the plugs once they are loosened – I simply used a magnetic probe and lifted them straight out of their tunnels.

20121208_152100.jpg


8. – So we move back to the front of the engine –
- Pin back the timing chain tensioner as in the picture
- secure the crank from rotating and undo the Cam bolt
- Slide the cam trigger wheel off.


20121208_153243.jpg


20121208_153238.jpg


9. – You need a long bolt to insert into the cam shaft before removal – I found the discarded Main cap stud was the same thread – so used that.

20121208_153556.jpg


Now we rotate the cam shaft a minimum two times and listen for the lifters to “hang up” in their bores – they make a kind on clicking sound as the locate.

You won’t know if they’ve all “located” until you start to remove the cam …so take it “slow and easy”.

10. – Be aware –Its done more by feel than any rules – slowly ease the cam out feeling for interference.

If you get to a point where the cam will simply not move (this will happen very early in the process) – you may have a lifter that has refused to "hang" (relocate) .

A magnetic probe down each push rod hole will tell you which is still too far “down the tunnel” – it will also assist in lifting it “out the way” an you may be able to continue the cam withdrawal.
If you have several “dropped” lifters – either buy a lot of probes and get a load of buddies to hold them - or remove the heads, centre plenum and do an “old school” cam change by removing the lifters.

Hopefully you’ve lucked out – all the lifters hung in their bores and the cam has now been removed!!

The cam tunnel - Note the lifter wheels all tucked up out the way.

20121208_154045.jpg



Part two will deal with the install – however I don’t intend to detail the process of degreeing the cam – as its beyond my skill set. :)
 
Hey Joe not to hijack this thread but I also bought the oil filter adapter and it WASN'T just notching the k-frame or I would have done it--It does NOT fit with the TTi mounts,If anyone needs one I got one,Just let me know--Steve
 
swifter said:
Hey Joe not to hijack this thread but I also bought the oil filter adapter and it WASN'T just notching the k-frame or I would have done it--It does NOT fit with the TTi mounts,If anyone needs one I got one,Just let me know--Steve
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I hope you're wrong. I don't like the idea of oil lines, I'd much prefer to use the adapter. In the picture above it looks like the adapter is just touching the motor mount. It appears that you could clearance the mount and make it fit.

Also, I wonder if there is more clearance with the spool type mounts. Although my car is a '67 Dart, since it is a slant six car and I have to change the K-Member anyway, I've bought a 73-76 spool mount K-Member. So we'll see, if you have tried to make it fit with a spool mounts and found it impossible, let me know, so I don't waste my time.

Since the K-member is not in the car I plan to mock everything up on the K-member prior to install, at that point I'll have a definitive answer.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
 
Joe Dokes said:
Hmmm, I hope you're wrong. I don't like the idea of oil lines, I'd much prefer to use the adapter. In the picture above it looks like the adapter is just touching the motor mount. It appears that you could clearance the mount and make it fit.

Also, I wonder if there is more clearance with the spool type mounts. Although my car is a '67 Dart, since it is a slant six car and I have to change the K-Member anyway, I've bought a 73-76 spool mount K-Member. So we'll see, if you have tried to make it fit with a spool mounts and found it impossible, let me know, so I don't waste my time.

Since the K-member is not in the car I plan to mock everything up on the K-member prior to install, at that point I'll have a definitive answer.

Regards,

Joe Dokes
Click to expand...

Hey joe same here
For my 1970 duster, I bought the 45 degree adapter. I have a 5.7, sandwich mounts and the tti mounts. I went to go mock it up and the adapter on the passenger side is hitting the oil filter adapter. As far as clearance between there and the k-member. I had plenty. I would have had to cut out half the adapter and notch the sandwich mount just to fit. So I'm going with the oil filter relocation route. I have heard different stories for the same models. Good luck.
 
Something Ive just discpvered from another tti user is that when using biscuit mounts, the tti adapters raise the height of the motor significantly - creating pinion angle issues.

I may well end up using one of our local 6 cylinder K frames because they have lower saddles.
 
Good info here. I will refer to it when I put my motor in next month. Saves me trying to remember stuff I seldom do. Did you buy the pan as a kit or all those individual pieces you outlined?
 
What do you think of the quality of those headers btw? Do they look like they are stout enough to hand my turbo setup?
 
73dusterB5blue said:
Good info here. I will refer to it when I put my motor in next month. Saves me trying to remember stuff I seldom do. Did you buy the pan as a kit or all those individual pieces you outlined?
Click to expand...

G'day

I bought all the oil parts separately - don't know if milodon does a kit ?

The headers seem to be of a pretty sturdy gauge material - not sure if they are stainless.

The collector is only 2.5" however - so my workshop guy is considering trimming the base and fitting a three inch tube.

I can ask my buddy what h thinks about them for a turbo application - he has some experience having built an efi twin turbo 318 that made over 600 at the crank.
 
awesome, thanks. Also how far do the stick out from the side of the block on the drivers side?
 
Thanks. I think I am just going to put the car on the trailer once the motor is in and take it to the boys. I go to Arkansas every few weeks any way so it really isn't a big deal
 
PARTS
TTI oil block off plate - PN 0200-FBP



Because the factory A Body "K" frame fouls on the factory 3G Hemi oil filter , you have to consider which way you want to tackle the problem.

You can use a Dodge Dakota truck angled filter adapter - but that requires running a very short filter - and still requires some notching of both the adapter and / or the K frame.





As I run a remote oil filter system anyway..I've chosen to use the TTI filter boss block off plate.
The 3G Hemi has remote auxilliory oiling ports directly above the filter boss....making it easy to tap remote oil hoses directly into the block.

This pic shows the oil filter boss..and the original threaded oil filter screw fitting. You'll need a 12mm allen key to remove this.





This pic shows the TTI block off plate partially attached - its a perfect fit and uses O rings to seal to the boss.





The TTI engine mount adapter requires a small amount of trimming to clear the plate - not sure how TTI could have missed this pretty basic issue.....:(



So there you have it!

Two option to run the oil filter system and either will work with very little drama
 
(This post is pretty basic and most on a US forum will know where the various sensors are located and their function. The part #s and other info may come in useful however.........)


PART #s
- Any sender block with 1/8-27 NPT thread fitting
- Any NPT adapter bung converting block thread to 1/8-27
- Factory 5.7 Cam sensor 56041584AF
- Factory 5.7 Crank sensor 56028815AA



Various sensors need to be changed to suit both the MSD 6013 ECUand MSD 88863 wiring harness, and the 1971 Chrysler instrumentation.


Cam and Crank


The 06-08 MSD harness 88863 requires the use of the 05-09 5.7 cam and crank sensor.

This is the reason why MSD claim the ECU won’t work with the 6.1. It’s not the functionality of the unit, simply that the harness is supplied with the 5.7 style plug clips for these two sensors..not the 6.1 style which are much smaller.


The solution is simple .......The MY 5.7 05-08 sensors screw straight in to the 6.1 block.

I bought mine from www.eastcoastmoparts.com shipped and arrived in 8 days.

The Cam sensor is located in the front timing accessories cover just behind the water pump outlet.


20121228_160009_zps280edfd0.jpg



The Crank sensor is located at the side of the block on the left side (as you face the car) towards the rear.


20121228_182056_zps6ef58900.jpg



Both sensors are O ringed and secured with one screw.


Oil


The 3G Hemi is fitted with both an oil pressure switch and an oil temp switch. They are poisioned directly above the oil filter boss.

The Oil temp switch screws in to the top oil auxiliary port. I’m using this port for my return oil line from my remote filter so won't be using an oil temp switch.

The oil pressure switch screws into the front of the block.

20121228_160003_zps92d5a257.jpg



The oil pressure switch utilises the same thread as the LA small block oil switch!!

.....so you can simply discard the 6.1 sensor and fit whatever variation of oil pressure switch or line you want to use.


I’m using a splitter block so I can run the factory oil light and my aftermarket DIXCO oil pressure gauge..to stay with the old school interior.


Water temp


The water temp switch is located at the top right front of the block (facing the front of the car) – and is a completely different thread from the LA small block temp sender. You will need to buy an adapter bung. Mine cost $2.98!



20121228_160047_zps8393c5f3.jpg



MAP sensor


Although the MSD 6013 ECU is primarily a spark controller – it does allow you to use the manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor to plot the manifold pressure to modify ignition timing at low and high vacuum.



20121228_160127_zpsb38ceb8f.jpg



The EFI intake MAP sensor is located at the rear of the intake. It is secured by an o ring and two screws. I simply removed it and attached it to the Indy Modman as this intake has a provision for this sensor.

These are the only sensor modifications required as I am not running EFI and am not using a fuel controller of any sort.....except the carb!
 
Rat Patrol said:
(This post is pretty basic and most on a US forum will know where the various sensors are located and their function. The part #s and other info may come in useful however.........)


PART #s
- Any sender block with 1/8-27 NPT thread fitting
- Any NPT adapter bung converting block thread to 1/8-27
- Factory 5.7 Cam sensor 56041584AF
- Factory 5.7 Crank sensor 56028815AA



Various sensors need to be changed to suit both the MSD 6013 ECUand MSD 88863 wiring harness, and the 1971 Chrysler instrumentation.


Cam and Crank


The 06-08 MSD harness 88863 requires the use of the 05-09 5.7 cam and crank sensor.

This is the reason why MSD claim the ECU won’t work with the 6.1. It’s not the functionality of the unit, simply that the harness is supplied with the 5.7 style plug clips for these two sensors..not the 6.1 style which are much smaller.


The solution is simple .......The MY 5.7 05-08 sensors screw straight in to the 6.1 block.

I bought mine from www.eastcoastmoparts.com shipped and arrived in 8 days.

The Cam sensor is located in the front timing accessories cover just behind the water pump outlet.





The Crank sensor is located at the side of the block on the left side (as you face the car) towards the rear.





Both sensors are O ringed and secured with one screw.


Oil


The 3G Hemi is fitted with both an oil pressure switch and an oil temp switch. They are poisioned directly above the oil filter boss.

The Oil temp switch screws in to the top oil auxiliary port. I’m using this port for my return oil line from my remote filter so won't be using an oil temp switch.

The oil pressure switch screws into the front of the block.




The oil pressure switch utilises the same thread as the LA small block oil switch!!

.....so you can simply discard the 6.1 sensor and fit whatever variation of oil pressure switch or line you want to use.


I’m using a splitter block so I can run the factory oil light and my aftermarket DIXCO oil pressure gauge..to stay with the old school interior.


Water temp


The water temp switch is located at the top right front of the block (facing the front of the car) – and is a completely different thread from the LA small block temp sender. You will need to buy an adapter bung. Mine cost $2.98!






MAP sensor


Although the MSD 6013 ECU is primarily a spark controller – it does allow you to use the manifold air pressure (MAP) sensor to plot the manifold pressure to modify ignition timing at low and high vacuum.






The EFI intake MAP sensor is located at the rear of the intake. It is secured by an o ring and two screws. I simply removed it and attached it to the Indy Modman as this intake has a provision for this sensor.

These are the only sensor modifications required as I am not running EFI and am not using a fuel controller of any sort.....except the carb!
Click to expand...

Which ports are in and out for the oil filter relocation lines ( where the current oil temp switch resides ) ?
 
Bottom one is the direct feed to the oil pump - so assume that one is "in" from the filter.

That would make the top one "out" ..to the filter.

Hopefully someone will verify but I'm pretty sure that's correct.

Oil temp switch is normally screwed into the lower one.

Passengerfront.jpg
 
Rat Patrol said:
Bottom one is the direct feed to the oil pump - so assume that one is "in" from the filter.

That would make the top one "out" ..to the filter.

Hopefully someone will verify but I'm pretty sure that's correct.

Oil temp switch is normally screwed into the lower one.
Click to expand...

That's what I have come across. But never verified all the way. Thanks
 
73dusterB5blue I ordered the same headers from s&p, (weeks ago). the 2.5 will help the turbo spool quicker, the turbo is the choke point anyway. The flange is stainless, tubes are mild steel. As long as the turbos are supported and are not putting load on the turbos they should be ok. I ordered mine with v-bands and just tacked encase I need to move a tube or make adjustments. I may send them back to get finished and then they heat coat inside and out. I am going to check to see if it is cheaper to have it done local first.

Trevor
 
Thx to the board admin for the sticky! Hope its useful to some!



Update - We decided to degree the cam because its on a tighter LSA than most.

My builder is "old school" and leaves nothing to doubt.

This means a lifter swap to converted solid lifters - head off. Waiting on the cylinder bolts from www.eastcoastmoparts.com

http://www.sharadon.com/ have very kindly supplied me with a couple of used lifters we can convert to solid to get accurate readings....Thanx to Denny who helped me out of a real bind. Supplied the lifters for free and I covered postage.:)
 
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