Bad machine work or am i over looking something?

-

Cudafever

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
4,870
Reaction score
1,997
Installed my 4" crank( SCAT Forged) on to my block. installed #3 Thrust bearings and checked end play with a dial indicator. Had to pry hard and only got .002" of end play,and it would spring back. pull my feeler gauges out and i have .002 play/gap on one side of the block and .002 play on the opposite side of the cap. tried to loosen main cap and center it on the crank. no change. Spin the cap on the block(which i know is the wrong way!) and and the gap on the block moves from the rear side to the front side. And main "cap" gap, move to the rear.

So basically, i have "0" end play. :scratch:
 
So whats you opinion on sanding .002" off the tight side of the lower shell to get side clearance?

320 or 600 wet and dry sand paper??????
 
I have to sand them fairly regularly. Use the 320 and then touch it with the 600.
 
did you set the thrust before checking? Meaning snug up all the mains (not much more than hand tight), take a dead blow hammer (or any other non maring hammer), and hit the crank front and back. Then torque the mains and check for thrust clearance. If its still tight, sanding the bearings is an ok thing to do
 
Thanks!
A common problem?

Trying to decide to buy another set or fix this one............sounds like i my have to sand another one if i buy it!

How quick does it sand down. How do you keep it square will you sanding it?
 
always have to set thrust. big hammer and smack it till you get what you want
 
did you set the thrust before checking? Meaning snug up all the mains (not much more than hand tight), take a dead blow hammer (or any other non maring hammer), and hit the crank front and back. Then torque the mains and check for thrust clearance. If its still tight, sanding the bearings is an ok thing to do

Yup, even used a brass hammer to try and shift the cap. took a pipe cleaner to the cap were the studs go through. Hoping that there was some kind of rust or crap in there, keeping it from moving. no change.
 
Yup, even used a brass hammer to try and shift the cap. took a pipe cleaner to the cap were the studs go through. Hoping that there was some kind of rust or crap in there, keeping it from moving. no change.

you have it backwards... you hit the crank not the cap...
 
you have it backwards... you hit the crank not the cap...

I tried it both ways. First with hitting the crank, and pry on it. 2nt with the cap its self. cap didn't move either way. The studs seam to fit the cap better then bolts. a standard bolt is .445" in diamitor and then at the vary top, next to the head, it grows to .496" my new studs are .496 all the way through.
 
I tried it both ways. First with hitting the crank, and pry on it. 2nt with the cap its self. cap didn't move either way. The studs seam to fit the cap better then bolts. a standard bolt is .445" in diamitor and then at the vary top, next to the head, it grows to .496" my new studs are .496 all the way through.

where is your starting clearance? first off when you installed the upper bearing shells, did you oil/assembly lube the face of the bearing (crank side)? then install the crank and spin it, should have almost no resistance, very easy by hand. then install the other half of the shells and caps, and snug , then 25ft lbs tq. check again to see if it spins easily. now check end play, minimum is .004 good is .005-.007.

what is your starting clearance?
 
I've only built, or helped build less than a hundred engines in my lifetime, including mine, Mopar, GM, Ford, etc. I have not EVER had a problem with "enough" end play

Most of what I've put together has been on the loose side.

Side play of the studs/ bolts don't hold the cap in place, the tension of the cap against the block and the tight fight side to side holds it there.

On Mopars, I always put them in place with the cap bolts barely snug, with all other caps off. Push and pry the crank fore/ aft, and you should be able to feel it move. Then torque the cap and check it.

I've no idea what your experience is--you DO have the cap on the correct way, IE bearing tab to bearing tab?

Otherwise, I'd suspect radius problems with the crank journal
 

The book said .002-.007

If i would of had a used crank i would not of found this problem! install a dial indicator and found say, .004 i would of called it good and moved on. Which in reality i would have had .004 on the tight side of the cap/block and an extra .002 on the loose side.(opposite sides of cap and block)

When i install the crank with all upper shells the crank moves freely. Install #3 cap, it's free. when its torqued down the crank is stiff but can be turned by the counter ways.

I know I'm not doing a good job of explaining this.......Basically when the cap and shell are installed, it is forcing the crank over causing the 0 gap

Nothing wrong with the crank. were i can fit .002" feeler gauge in, it stays the same through the full rotation.

and yes i used lube on the bearing shells.
 
Not an expert but this is bugging me so I need to chime in. I also have a Scat forged and I thought they had a radius on the journal instead of a fillet to make them stronger (so you need special bearings to match). Could this be contributing to this problem. Again if I am way off base please excuse my ignorance.
 
Not an expert but this is bugging me so I need to chime in. I also have a Scat forged and I thought they had a radius on the journal instead of a fillet to make them stronger (so you need special bearings to match). Could this be contributing to this problem. Again if I am way off base please excuse my ignorance.

The only dumb question is the one not asked! in my book.

That was the first thing i did. install the bearing on to the crank and checked.

Rod bearing i will have to do the same thing with.
 
Have you measured the thrust face width on the crank and then measured it on the thrust bearing with micrometers?
 
common problem with asian crankshafts. machining tools get dull, crank journals need to be checked, often they are not cut all the way, especially at the edges of the journals.
http://www.musclemotorsracing.com/muscle-mike-blog/122-stroker-kits-101.html

here is an excerpt if that article is too big for you to read:

Crankshafts tend to have more issues. Nowadays 95% of the machining done on a crankshaft is done by CNC mills. Counterweights, flanges and bearing journals are all machined automatically. This makes for a very nice, consistent component. Where most of the Asian cranks “drop the ball” is in the bearing journal finishing. This is still a process done with a large spinning abrasive wheel. Due to the size of the grinding wheel required for final finishing of crankshaft journals, (usually about 3’ in diameter) the wheels are made out of compressed abrasive. Ideally a wheel made with “diamond stones” would be more consistent but due to the size of the wheel required and the cost to make a wheel that big is not practical. Abrasive stones have done a great job for centuries in the finishing of a metal surface. The only area where you can have issues is that the wheel or abrasive stone does not wear evenly. This is a constant situation when grinding a crank. One must repeatedly “dress” the wheel. To “dress” a grinding wheel is a process in where the operator makes sure the wear surface of the grinding wheel is square to the surface it is machining. When a crankshaft is ground too quickly or the wheel is not constantly checked for straightness the grinding wheel will wear more on the edges of the wheel. Because the wheel moves back and forth across the journal the bearing surface is still consistent and flat. The problem is at the edges or radius of the crank. This is where the wheel is not square and the journal surface has taper or “ramps up” just before the radius of the crank. Most people miss this because they measure in the center of the journal (assuming it’s flat all the way across). The journal measures within a tolerance and you are good to go, WRONG! If the journal has taper you will have a MAJOR failure if not addressed.
Chrysler had “backcut radiuses” from the factory. What this means is where the bearing surface ends at the edges, Mother Mopar had a narrow plunge cut on the journal. This allowed for a wide bearing that went right to the edge of the journal. While this is great for production engines, it does create a weak spot or stress riser where cracks will start. Performance cranks have what are called ”full radius” journals. This means there is a continuous radiused transition at the edge of a journal. These journals, with a full radius require a chamfered bearing to properly clear the transition. NOTE: This is where less expensive cranks drop the ball!
 
I'm not sure I understand. You have .002" on the block half of one side, and .002" on the cap side of the opposite side? Or you have .002" overall measured on each side of the cap?
Did you measure for the oil clearance on that journal yet? Was the block align bored/honed as part of the stud installation?
 
Installed my 4" crank( SCAT Forged) on to my block. installed #3 Thrust bearings and checked end play with a dial indicator. Had to pry hard and only got .002" of end play,and it would spring back. pull my feeler gauges out and i have .002 play/gap on one side of the block and .002 play on the opposite side of the cap. tried to loosen main cap and center it on the crank. no change. Spin the cap on the block(which i know is the wrong way!) and and the gap on the block moves from the rear side to the front side. And main "cap" gap, move to the rear.

So basically, i have "0" end play. :scratch:


I'm not sure this will help. If I'm understanding you, it may. Check out the video at about 9 minutes in. It's on a chivvie 383 stroker build but may provide some insight.

http://www.powerblocktv.com/episodes/HP2013-05/summit-racing-383-stroker-pt-1
 
I agree with the above. I think this is a crank problem
 
.002-.006 I believe is fine.
If you want more, yes...sand the thrust bearing, done it before.
Which main bearings are you using though?
Full groove are narrower than standard.
 
Have you measured the thrust face width on the crank and then measured it on the thrust bearing with micrometers?

NO. The crank is machined way below the thrust area of the bearing. So there is no bind from the radius and my feeler gauge tells me the same thing.

I'm not sure I understand. You have .002" on the block half of one side, and .002" on the cap side of the opposite side? Or you have .002" overall measured on each side of the cap?
Did you measure for the oil clearance on that journal yet? Was the block align bored/honed as part of the stud installation?

Yes,Highlighted in blue. Maybe this will paint a better picture. looking at the thrust "Diagonally", one side has .002 and the other side has 0 or maybe Minus .0001 causing it to be tight to turn. the .002" stays the same as the crank is turn as well.

Oil clearance for the #3 journal is .0015

.002-.006 I believe is fine.
If you want more, yes...sand the thrust bearing, done it before.
Which main bearings are you using though?
Full groove are narrower than standard.

3/4 groove, Federal Mogul/Speed Pro. part # A11097(standard width)

The crank machining is not the problem. it true, straight, and below the thrust area of the bearing.
 
-
Back
Top Bottom