Q: Ford Solenoid Switch in Lieu of Mopar Starter Relay?

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archlab

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Has anyone used the Ford Solenoid Switch instead? I've gone through my collection of Mopar Starter Relays & just can't seem to get the SR to activate the Starter. I've got a Ford Solenoid Switch which just looks like a better design (2 hefty posts vs. the one on the Mopar SR).

Also, from pulling apart a Mopar SR, I was 'aghast' (as Thurston J. Howell would say) at the skimpy construction of the relay - i.e.: One copper 'strand', abt 0.2mm diam connecting the posts). Perhaps the Ford Switch is no better inside, but certainly looks heftier from the outside.

Curious to see some of your thoughts.
 
The Ford relay is meant to pass the entire current of the Ford starter. The chryco unit is only meant to pass the current for the solenoid which handles the switching of the starter current. That's why the ford is 'overbuilt'. I would avoid using the Ford part, mostly because every non-Ford I've ever seen that uses one of those relays is a complete hack job under the hood.

If your relay won't trigger the starter, a new one might work. If your starter is toast, it won't help. I'm assuming your battery is recent and charged as well.

Might be worth having your starter tested. Are you handy with a multi meter? Do you have a multi meter? If so, you can test the starter relay pretty easily. I'd start with testing the battery. Set your meter to volts and then crank the key to start. If the battery drops under 10.5v your battery is toast.

If the battery voltage doesn't change and stays at 12.6+v, then continue to test the relay. First start by checking if the ignition switch is sending switched power to the relay. If so, then check to see if the relay closes when power is switched by checking continuity across the terminals which are wired between the battery and the starter. If there's no continuity when power is switched at the relay then the relay is suspect. If there is, the starter is suspect.
 
The Ford relay will not allow you have the Mopar Neutral Safety switch system in circuit and operating properly.

If you don't want to use a meter then use a 12v test light and do this sequence of tests:
1) Put it between the brown wire from the start relay and ground and turn the key to START. If you get a light, then the starter is the problem. Otherwise:
2) If no light above, then ground the G terminal of the starter relay and try again. (This simulates the neutral safety switch being closed to ground as it should to allow starting.) If it starts, then the NSS (neutral safety switch or its wire is the problem. If still no start:
3) Connect the test light between ground and the I terminal of the start relay (the yellow wire). Turn the key to START and see if the light lights, If yes, then the problem is the starter relay itself. If no light, then the problem is in the ignition switch or the yellow wire.

If you have around a 74 or 75 they had a seat belt interlock that will open the yellow wire circuit and prevent starting. So let us know what year car you have.
 
nm9stheham said:
The Ford relay will not allow you have the Mopar Neutral Safety switch system in circuit and operating properly.

If you don't want to use a meter then use a 12v test light and do this sequence of tests:
1) Put it between the brown wire from the start relay and ground and turn the key to START. If you get a light, then the starter is the problem. Otherwise:
2) If no light above, then ground the G terminal of the starter relay and try again. (This simulates the neutral safety switch being closed to ground as it should to allow starting.) If it starts, then the NSS (neutral safety switch or its wire is the problem. If still no start:
3) Connect the test light between ground and the I terminal of the start relay (the yellow wire). Turn the key to START and see if the light lights, If yes, then the problem is the starter relay itself. If no light, then the problem is in the ignition switch or the yellow wire.

If you have around a 74 or 75 they had a seat belt interlock that will open the yellow wire circuit and prevent starting. So let us know what year car you have.
Click to expand...

I have a ford relay on my totally rewired 68 fastback. the car will start in any gear,(bummer)but, the wire to the starter is only hot when you hit the key to start it, not all the time. the box that the ford relay came in said the relay had to be grounded to work. wonder if I insulated the mounting bolts and back of it, if the n.s.switch would act as a ground when starting ??? all comments welcome--------bob
 
nm9stheham said:
The Ford relay will not allow you have the Mopar Neutral Safety switch system in circuit and operating properly.

.
Click to expand...

^^THIS^^ There is a "ferd style" relay with an extra post that was used on some AMC rigs that will fix that. However, there is NO reason to use OTHER than a Mopar starter relay, unless you want to get it hidden. On my new wiring, it will be replaced by a "Bosch" style relay, and this is exactly what the newer Mopar stuff (RAM etc) uses.
 
archlab said:
I've gone through my collection of Mopar Starter Relays & just can't seem to get the SR to activate the Starter. .
Click to expand...

As Carl Sagan would have said, "mulliuns and mullions" of these cars worked just fine with the usual Mopar starter relay.

So?

Fix what you have, find out the problem, troubleshoot it and PLEASE stop throwing parts at the thing.

SIMPLE:

Jumper across the two large relay posts with a screwdriver. Does the starter engage? How large is the wire going from the starter relay "square" terminal to the starter solenoid? this is normally no 12 or 10 or so.

Is the relay actually getting activated? A couple of simple checks with a test lamp or multimeter will tell you FOR SURE

Clip your meter to the "square" relay post, and to ground. Prop it up so you can read it. Twist the key to start. The starter should engage, and you should read "close to" battery voltage, or if it is cranking, at least 10.5V
 
67Dart273 said:
..."Bosch" style relay, and this is exactly what the newer Mopar stuff (RAM etc) uses.
Click to expand...

I'm intrigued by this. What are the advantages to upgrading to this style? And, do you have any images,diagrams,gfx to reference?
 
The only reason I would do so (and am) is if you are cleaning up the engine bay and re-wiring the car. A so called "Bosch" relay is fairly standardized, although there are differences, IE some are single "throw" only (normally open, close on energize) and some have double throw (normally open and normally closed) and there are different sizes. But there are a series that are "common."

My rework looks like this:

a2ufdk.jpg


The vent has been replaced by a cut down mustang vent, the big relay box is built up from two Jeep units, with an aftermarket fuse panel above, and the Holley HP EFI at the bottom.

In the relay box you can see a micro and a larger relay, put there to test clearance for the vent. The box has room for several. They will "do everything," starter relay, horn, security, ignition, fuel pump, and two for high and low headlights.

This is what most of us call a "Bosh" relay.

72384.jpg


Most parts stores sell variations, as well as single relay mounting sockets. Other aftermarket make multi--mount sockets, people like Hella and many others.

Below is "standard" layout for wiring

Relay_0332209137_Drawing.gif


Power for the load is brought in on 30, power out to the load (starter) is out on 87

85 and 86 replace the "push on" terminals on your starter relay, IE they are the coil. One caveat........some of these have a built in diode and you must make sure you get 85/86 hooked up the right polarity. Worse, there seems to be some with the diode reversed from "most popular." Many don't have one.
 
Ok, I looked this up & seems like a whole new 'world or wiring' is to be had for the entire electrical system. It's a good modernization move for older vehicles. I'm gonna consider doing this kindo f upgrade on a future car project.
 
Ditto. A standard 30A "automotive relay" can replace the Mopar starter relay fine. Wire coil- (pin 85 in post #8 ) to the NSS (grounds it in P or N). That is exactly how my 1996 Voyager starter circuit works, and I don't think its engine computer interacts w/ the starter circuit at all. As 67Dart273 did, I put a newer underhood fuse/relay box in my 64 & 65 A's. I used a box from a 95-99 Jeep. See my post "Modernized Engine Wiring .." (or such) for details.
 
The Ford/Mopar thing is stupid. The "Ford" type solenoid has been used on everything from Fords to industrial equipment and everything in between. To even associate it with "Ford" is a stretch, although I understand why, since so many Fords used them. But add in all the other applications they were/are used in and Ford's uses pale in comparison. It is not a bad design and if you circumvent the neutral safety issue, the "Ford" solenoid is certainly an upgrade.
 
RustyRatRod said:
The Ford/Mopar thing is stupid. The "Ford" type solenoid has been used on everything from Fords to industrial equipment and everything in between. To even associate it with "Ford" is a stretch, although I understand why, since so many Fords used them. But add in all the other applications they were/are used in and Ford's uses pale in comparison. It is not a bad design and if you circumvent the neutral safety issue, the "Ford" solenoid is certainly an upgrade.
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Well that's sorta true, but in reality at the (very low) rate of failure of mopar relays, it's simply using a sledge hammer to drive tacks. Not really needed. the beater "White Whale" dodge pu has nearly 200K on it, using a tiny Bosh relay to drive the Mopar solenoid, and from the looks of it, never been changed.
 
67Dart273 said:
Well that's sorta true, but in reality at the (very low) rate of failure of mopar relays, it's simply using a sledge hammer to drive tacks. Not really needed. the beater "White Whale" dodge pu has nearly 200K on it, using a tiny Bosh relay to drive the Mopar solenoid, and from the looks of it, never been changed.
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That's a pretty good analogy.......also akin to running a Dana 60 in a street driven A body. Since when was overkill really a bad thing? lol
 
I was thinking more along the lines of your mopar is a Rembrandt w/a small tear
in it,but instead of repairing the tear,you want to throw a turd on it to cover it up.
Justifying it with,"well it could've used more brown there anyway!". Um, diag.
and fix the bad connection/wire,or part and it will start just fine like it did for
the last 30 yrs.
 
Killer6 said:
I was thinking more along the lines of your mopar is a Rembrandt w/a small tear
in it,but instead of repairing the tear,you want to throw a turd on it to cover it up.
Justifying it with,"well it could've used more brown there anyway!". Um, diag.
and fix the bad connection/wire,or part and it will start just fine like it did for
the last 30 yrs.
Click to expand...

opinions are like a--holes, everybodys got one !
 
WELL Bob, I guess not ALL comments were welcome after all.In your defense,you
have said turd on your Rembrandt,and took it personally.In my defense, OP archlab
wanted our thoughts on the subject, those are my thoughts.
If you have a heat soak problem from headers or hipo mannys,and heat wrap/
shielding is difficult or impractical/ineffective,there is certainly justification for
moving the high-current contacts away from the heat.Forgot about AMC version of
that unit,w/ford style starter & power(torque)flite trans,good call 67.
The bosch-cube style relay is definitely not an "upgrade" over your OE,however
it will work fine(quality variations not withstanding-go reputable),but more importantly they are plentiful and readily available.The circuit assignments are DIN
international standardized.Any relay usually will have those numbers on them some-
where. 30)hi-current switched V in
87)hi-current switched V out,normally open till relay is energized
87a)hi-current switched V out,normally closed
85&86)relay field coil control +&neg.
 
I'd second/third/eleventeenth checking that you're getting power - not just voltage - to the relay as the first step. Voltage is easy to check for, but current is needed too. Likely if you're getting enough voltage you're also getting enough current, but don't take it for granted.

The Ford STYLE starter relay has been used for years to make Chebbies with hot-start problems (usually header heat-soak induced) actually start. Sometimes it's done first, sometimes every other known 'cure' is applied first. GM actually used a version of them on the early Olds based diesels. As those were rubber mounted they may, too, allow the NSS to work correctly.

I have the Mopar relay. I'm saddened by how cheaply it's constructed. Works, so I've no reason to change it until it fails. If/when it does I'll go the "Sugar Cube" Bosch type relay. A quality part is rated for 30 amps. If the starter solenoid needs more than that it's time for a look-see at the starter.
 
famous bob said:
I have a ford relay on my totally rewired 68 fastback. the car will start in any gear,(bummer)but, the wire to the starter is only hot when you hit the key to start it, not all the time. the box that the ford relay came in said the relay had to be grounded to work. wonder if I insulated the mounting bolts and back of it, if the n.s.switch would act as a ground when starting ??? all comments welcome--------bob
Click to expand...
Well, yes, the ground end of the solenoid goes to the case. Seems easier to just use the Mopar part.....
 
ntsqd said:
GM actually used a version of them on the early Olds based diesels. As those were rubber mounted they may, too, allow the NSS to work correctly..
Click to expand...

I'd almost forgotten. I think some Chev heavy trucks did, and I KNOW IHC did with Delco starters. I believe this was simply to ease the use of either AMC or IHC engines, IE AMC using Ferd built starters. The Delco equipped vehicles came with a factory copper jumper between the big starter stud and the "S" terminal.

Another "trick" back in the day was 6V VeeDubs, which sometimes would not engage the starter with the key.........voltage drop. the "cure" was to find an older 6V Ferd style solenoid and use the key to fire it, same deal.

.............gets back from Google..........

148_0312_hot_09_z.jpg
 
Here's one of the AMC with NSS. AMC used Torqueflites. This is essentially a Ferd solenoid with one end of the coil hooked to that extra pin "out the back" instead of grounded at the bracket.

This "might be" an SS-590 Standard

Starter-Solenoid-switch.jpg


A'nudder view

SS590_BOTTOM.JPG
 
archlab said:
Also, from pulling apart a Mopar SR, I was 'aghast' (as Thurston J. Howell would say) at the skimpy construction of the relay - i.e.: One copper 'strand', abt 0.2mm diam connecting the posts). Perhaps the Ford Switch is no better inside, but certainly looks heftier from the outside.

Curious to see some of your thoughts.
Click to expand...
I assume you are talking about the solenoid wire? The small wire is not any issue at all. The wire needs to be just large enough to carry the solenoid current reliably but is made small on purpose to have high enough resistance when wound to keep current low with a 12v system. Only the contact leads need to be heavier, but even then, the Mopar starter relay carries just a few amps; the Ford relay carries the full starter current (up to a few hundreds of amps).
 
I've torn apart a few ORIGINALS, not modern chineseoeanated replacements. those are actually a fairly heavy relay. Based on what I've see, I would estimate the contacts (depending on the coil) are good for 40A or better.

And THAT is an important point. Relay contacts ratings depend on the shape, pressure they are under, and the material they are made from. This is why STARTER solenoids (Ford) are different from "CONTINUOUS DUTY" solenoids. The contacts are not "rated" at as much current mostly because the coils of the two generate very different pulls. The Ferd relay has MUCH more magnetism, but the coil cannot be left energized for long. The continuous relay has LESS magnetic pull, but the coil is (allegedly) designed for "continuous use." That alone DErates the contact amperage.

I have no idea what the time / duty cycle of a Mopar relay is
 
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