I think I found my vibration problem

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skep419 said:
or go internally balanced and get a new balancer. (your converter should be good to go neutral balanced/just need a neutral balance flexplate)
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Internally balanced is more than just the converter and Harmonic Balancer. You have to have the matching crankshaft (cast or forged). You can internally balance a cast crank 440 with Mallory metal etc... but it will destroy itself if you just swap parts around. Also which B&M flexplate? The one for internally balanced or the one with the cut out?
 
have you dropped the fan belt and PS belt (if fitted) and run the engine without the alternator and water pump etc hooked up? I thought I had the samewrong converter, wrong crank and so on,,,,,,, was the alternator!!! it had a bad out of balance stator, swapped out the alternator and the complete car was a whole new car to drive
 
skep419 said:
or go internally balanced and get a new balancer. (your converter should be good to go neutral balanced/just need a neutral balance flexplate)
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so what you are saying is that if I change the flex plate from an external balanced one to a neutral balanced one I should be good to go with this problem and I wouldn't have to balance the rotating assembly.
 
trudysduster said:
so what you are saying is that if I change the flex plate from an external balanced one to a neutral balanced one I should be good to go with this problem and I wouldn't have to balance the rotating assembly.
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No I certainly didn't see him say that. You've been asked at least twice now exactly WHICH one of the TWO B&M flexplates you have. You have not answered. Have you even looked?

Confirm which flexplate you have. Then you can move forward. I swear. Every thread with you is a train wreck of you not listening and following good advice. S'why I gave up trying to help you .

Get under the car. See which flexplate you have. Report back. Sounds simple enough. Why are you making it so flap frikkin difficult?

You're not stupid. You do some incredible paint and body work. Do what's being asked of you so people can actually help you. Dammit man.
 
RustyRatRod said:
No I certainly didn't see him say that. You've been asked at least twice now exactly WHICH one of the TWO B&M flexplates you have. You have not answered. Have you even looked?

Confirm which flexplate you have. Then you can move forward. I swear. Every thread with you is a train wreck of you not listening and following good advice. S'why I gave up trying to help you .

Get under the car. See which flexplate you have. Report back. Sounds simple enough. Why are you making it so flap frikkin difficult?

You're not stupid. You do some incredible paint and body work. Do what's being asked of you so people can actually help you. Dammit man.
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Rusty read post # 18 and # 20. I have stated several times, maybe in a different thread that I have a B & M 10237 flex plate. I am not trying to make this difficult, I am trying to get this to work. I need help before I trade this ***** off for a ........... Quit busting my balls. If you want to help. I can use it. If you have spent as much money as I have on this and still have a vibration, you would be going nuts too. I have been dealing with for about 10 years and no one has come up with a solution.
 
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trudysduster said:
friend of mine built this engine for me back 15 years ago, .
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!!MAN!! You have more troubles

Seems to me you might have a "one off" balance problem.......that is it's not internally balanced, and it's not "weighted" the same as a typical factory 440 like a six pack. Odd combos of pistons and rods could cause this, and who knows? what he used for a crank?

So ?

1.....Are you SURE this is ONLY the engine, running, and not some EG exhaust pipe, part of the trans, etc, rubbing the floor, etc?

2....And it IS? only the engine? That is sitting there stopped?

3...."If" it's only the engine, have you run it with the belts unhooked?
 
trudysduster said:
well for what it is worth, I have spoke to several people today I trust and they all said that if I am running the B & M flexplate, I do not need weights on the converter. Now after doing some more checking, I found out that when this so called friend of mine built this engine for me back 15 years ago, he didn't balance the engine when he put it together. I was busy trucking and I didn't have time to take care of my business so that could explain the vibration I have had for 15 years. I was running GM at the track and he was running a 72 Dart and I figured he knew what he was doing. So, I just left the machine shop and for my winter project this year, the engine is coming out and I am going to have it rebuilt and balanced along with the converter.
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Many people have "built" engines w/o internally balancing them, and this shouldn't be a problem with the rite rotating components. You shouldn't be confused at all.If the engine isn't,you have the rite flexplate.However if he installed different(heavier) pistons, then the std. amount of imbalance may not be correct for the combo. Also, you didn't say which damper you're running,stock or......?That must have an imbalance as well.I have put a cast 440 together w/a change to 10:1 cast slugs,w/a stock damp., and I had to weld the weights(which I made) to the 11" TCI conv. I would use the avail. flexplate today,they didn't exist then,and it was a "budget" build that put the 2ton satellite into the mid 13's.
 
RustyRatRod said:
No I certainly didn't see him say that. You've been asked at least twice now exactly WHICH one of the TWO B&M flexplates you have. You have not answered. Have you even looked?

Confirm which flexplate you have. Then you can move forward. I swear. Every thread with you is a train wreck of you not listening and following good advice. S'why I gave up trying to help you .

Get under the car. See which flexplate you have. Report back. Sounds simple enough. Why are you making it so flap frikkin difficult?

You're not stupid. You do some incredible paint and body work. Do what's being asked of you so people can actually help you. Dammit man.
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so I guess this means I am not going to get any help from you.
67Dart273 said:
!!MAN!! You have more troubles

Seems to me you might have a "one off" balance problem.......that is it's not internally balanced, and it's not "weighted" the same as a typical factory 440 like a six pack. Odd combos of pistons and rods could cause this, and who knows? what he used for a crank?

So ?

1.....Are you SURE this is ONLY the engine, running, and not some EG exhaust pipe, part of the trans, etc, rubbing the floor, etc?

2....And it IS? only the engine? That is sitting there stopped?

3...."If" it's only the engine, have you run it with the belts unhooked?
Click to expand...
 
Del, nothing rubbing the floor. Not that I have seen anyway. I plan on getting back under the car and checking it again. It is in park, if I bring the RPM's up slowly to about 1500-1800 ( don't have a tach ) guessing I can feel a quiver in the engine like a harmonic type imbalance. When I drive it starting out it seems worse. It starts about 30-50 MPH. The faster I go the better it gets. I can drive it about 20 miles nd it feels like the vibration gets better. Not as bad. That's why I thought it was in the converter. Fluid gets hotter.
I have ran it without belts, no change. Of course I have not ran it down the road without belts. Water pump is new, so is alternator.

Killer6, back when this engine was built, I bought Keith Black pistons to put in it, new bearings, rings, purple cam and whatever it needed. The crank was sent out and checked. Engine was bored .030 at a local machine shop. The block and crank I know was right cuz I had that done. I made a deal with this friend that I would go up in Michigan and buy a 64 Valiant for his son and bring it back for him and he would build this engine. We raced together at a local track. I had an enclosed trailer. I paid $800.00 for this car. I thought it was a good deal at the time. I was trucking and didn't have time to mess with the engine. He was a Mopar guy. now, he was also a crook I later found out. As to what is in the engine, I cannot swear to it. I know what I paid for. I do know he didn't balance the internals because the engine didn't leave his garage. I was a Chevy man back then and didn't know anything about Mopar. That is why I chose him to build the engine. His 340 in hiss 72 Dart was running in the 10's. I figured he knew what he was doing. He also had a 440 in his truck. Maybe my parts went in his truck and I got leftovers. I don't know.
 
RustyRatRod said:
No I certainly didn't see him say that. You've been asked at least twice now exactly WHICH one of the TWO B&M flexplates you have. You have not answered. Have you even looked?

Confirm which flexplate you have. Then you can move forward. I swear. Every thread with you is a train wreck of you not listening and following good advice. S'why I gave up trying to help you .

Get under the car. See which flexplate you have. Report back. Sounds simple enough. Why are you making it so flap frikkin difficult?

You're not stupid. You do some incredible paint and body work. Do what's being asked of you so people can actually help you. Dammit man.
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RRR, since all my threads are a train wreck, my son and I are going to do our best not to have any more train wrecks. I thought that was the purpose of these forums to get help when we need it. I apologize if they have not been to your standards. I appreciate all the help I have received from the members on here. I will not post anything else about our problems.
 
Now that's your decision. I never saw plainly where you answered which flexplate you have. If I missed it, my apologies. But don't put it at my feet if you choose not to seek help anymore. I've not commented on one of your threads in a very long time and if you want to get your panties in a wad over one post over a long period of time, that's your fault. I am sorry you're having so much trouble......and as with so many other members, I do wish you were local to me as I would come over and try to help in a minute. Not that that is of any help.

But you seem to have a habit of going the other direction when people recommend a diagnosis procedure. I've not made any recommendation here other than to be damned sure which flexplate you have. From the text, it seemed that was up in the air. Like I said, if you nailed it down, I missed it.
 
trudysduster said:
I have that flexplate on my car. Kenny at PTC told me that I needed the weights on the converter and so did Hughes Performance. I don't know what to do now. I am confused.
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I saw where you said this. But are you 100% SURE? Have you LOOKED? Have you turned the engine over a full 360* to look for the crescent missing from the flexplate? That's all I am trying to BEAT on is bein sure.
 
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RustyRatRod said:
Now that's your decision. I never saw plainly where you answered which flexplate you have. If I missed it, my apologies. But don't put it at my feet if you choose not to seek help anymore. I've not commented on one of your threads in a very long time and if you want to get your panties in a wad over one post over a long period of time, that's your fault. I am sorry you're having so much trouble......and as with so many other members, I do wish you were local to me as I would come over and try to help in a minute. Not that that is of any help.

But you seem to have a habit of going the other direction when people recommend a diagnosis procedure. I've not made any recommendation here other than to be damned sure which flexplate you have. From the text, it seemed that was up in the air. Like I said, if you nailed it down, I missed it.
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Well, if you had taken the time to read, you would have plainly saw on several occasions where I said what flexplate I have . Other members have. I know you have not commented on any of my threads in awhile. Matter of fact I have told you in the past not to because of this very thing. this isn't the first time you have busted my balls. But if you want to help, I am open to your input as long as you keep the rude remarks to your self. I admit, I am not a mechanic. I really don't want to be. I know you are very much knowledgeable about cars. I wish I knew more. It takes all kinds of people to make this world go around. I was a trucker for 30 years. I would like to see you get in a rig grossing 250,000 lbs and take it down the road. You probably couldn't. I did many times. So with that being said, just accept that all people on here isn't like you. I don't mind your input but I haven't got any yet. I listen to every thing people on here says, some I have done and some I know isn't the problem. I don't have the time to answer everyone. And I am really not interested in anybody's bullsh*t. So if you would like to help me, tell me something I don't know.
 
RustyRatRod said:
I saw where you said this. But are you 100% SURE? Have you LOOKED? Have you turned the engine over a full 360* to look for the crescent missing from the flexplate? That's all I am trying to BEAT on is bein sure.
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As for this, yes, I have turned this engine a full 360*. I have looked at the sticker on the flexplate and read the part #. 10237. I hve turned it around and saw the cutout on the plate. I also have looked through my paperwork and found where I purchased the flexplate along with the converter. I am sure I have a 10237 flexplate and sure I have a Hughes 24-30 torque converter. I am also sure I replaced the harmonic balanced a couple of months ago when the engine was out. I am almost sure it was external balanced and I got it from 440 source. I am going to look and find the receipt and verify this.
 
So far, my only input is verify, verify, verify. With your own two eyes. You need to verify the flexplate. You need to verify the harmonic balancer. Make sure they are correct for a cast crank, externally balanced engine.

That's the easy part. All this talk about mismatched internal parts......that's the hard part and the part you want to leave as an absolute LAST resort........right? I mean you don't want to go into it unless you have to. So verify.

That's all the recommendation I have right this minute. Don't come back at me and say "yeah I did it". Go do it again. Because the good Lord knows even though I have been at this a long time, I am the first to make a mistake. So, I verify, verify, verify. KNOW what you have, before proceeding. Hell, you might even luck up and find the issue.
 
Ok, good. Now THAT sounds concrete about the flexplate. Now we are gettin somewhere.

Yes verify the balancer IS for an externally balance engine. Both the flexplate AND the balancer would be easy mistakes to make with a 440, because most people would "assume" a forged, internally balanced engine. So it would be easier to maybe get a wrong part there.


trudysduster said:
As for this, yes, I have turned this engine a full 360*. I have looked at the sticker on the flexplate and read the part #. 10237. I hve turned it around and saw the cutout on the plate. I also have looked through my paperwork and found where I purchased the flexplate along with the converter. I am sure I have a 10237 flexplate and sure I have a Hughes 24-30 torque converter. I am also sure I replaced the harmonic balanced a couple of months ago when the engine was out. I am almost sure it was external balanced and I got it from 440 source. I am going to look and find the receipt and verify this.
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Here is MY advice and I know it won't be popular but here it is.


Pull that POS out and have it checked out. You have NO IDEA what is in it and what has been done. It's been a shaker since day one. Stop pissing away time and pull it out. The rotating assembly has not been CORRECTLY balanced. In fact, it sounds like you don't have a clue as to what you have.

Can't tell you how many times guys have paid for a balance job and didn't get it. Fixed many of them

You got screwed. Pull it out and get on with it.

Post back on what you do and what you find. But I'd bet everything RustyRatRod has I'm correct.

That's just the kind of guy I am!!! O.P.M Other People's Money...I spend it like water.
 
yellow rose said:
Here is MY advice and I know it won't be popular but here it is.


Pull that POS out and have it checked out. You have NO IDEA what is in it and what has been done. It's been a shaker since day one. Stop pissing away time and pull it out. The rotating assembly has not been CORRECTLY balanced. In fact, it sounds like you don't have a clue as to what you have.

Can't tell you how many times guys have paid for a balance job and didn't get it. Fixed many of them

You got screwed. Pull it out and get on with it.

Post back on what you do and what you find. But I'd bet everything RustyRatRod has I'm correct.

That's just the kind of guy I am!!! O.P.M Other People's Money...I spend it like water.
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Well I have been listening to every one who has gave me an idea as to what it is. I am going to try it, check it out. I really don't want to pull it as I am not really able yet. I had a hard time putting the engine back together in the Dart a couple months ago. But, I am thinking that is where the problem is. I wont pull it down till winter. I plan on enjoying the car shows this summer and taking it to Cruising the Coast in October. If I don't find it by then, it will come apart. I am going to check my paperwork on the harmonic balancer tonight but I am pretty sure it is external balanced. YES, I got a royal screwing on this engine as far as the balancing is concerned on the internals. Maybe as far as the parts, but it has been running for 15 years now and still is strong, just probably not balanced. I trusted people in the past. they have to earn it now. I am much wiser now. Will let you know about the balancer later. Thanks for the tips.
 
I agree 100%. It has been shaking for what is it? 10 years? That has to have taken a toll.

Bill, good luck with it regardless. Keep us posted on what you find out. Maybe between all of us we can come up with something.

That said, yellowrose is ultimately right. Going back through it is the only way to know what's in it from one end to the other.

yellow rose said:
Here is MY advice and I know it won't be popular but here it is.


Pull that POS out and have it checked out. You have NO IDEA what is in it and what has been done. It's been a shaker since day one. Stop pissing away time and pull it out. The rotating assembly has not been CORRECTLY balanced. In fact, it sounds like you don't have a clue as to what you have.

Can't tell you how many times guys have paid for a balance job and didn't get it. Fixed many of them

You got screwed. Pull it out and get on with it.

Post back on what you do and what you find. But I'd bet everything RustyRatRod has I'm correct.

That's just the kind of guy I am!!! O.P.M Other People's Money...I spend it like water.
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external balance
1001048-1.jpg


internal balance
1001045.jpg


Harmonic Dampers 440 Source.com
 
73AbodEE said:
Bill, are you sure this engine even has a cast crank in it ?
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Yes, the damper I pulled off of the engine was the one pictured in post # 46 at the top. The # on it was 3830482 I believe. I found the paperwork on the new balancer I bought from 440 source. Part # is 200-1128. I left the weight on when I put the balancer on. Now I need to know something here. Lets assume that this guy who put this engine together didn't balance the engine, which I can almost know for a fact he didn't, would this cause a vibration especially if he put say old rods or other pistons in it. Also, the weights for the converter came in today from PTC that Kenny told me to put on the converter. I think someone said they put them on and it works . What do I do. weld them on or leave them off.
 
2001128c.jpg

There is a bolt on weight to this balancer.
Would make sure it's there.

Don't think your quite understanding the externally balanced torque converter options. 2 ways it can be weighted.

1. Weight on torque converter.
2. Special b&m flex plate. (Which you have)
Only one of the above is needed.
 
Ok. Not being argumentative, just continuing the discussion.

You say you pulled off a balancer that had the weight on it. Did you run the engine with that balancer? Was it vibrating with that old balancer?

Have you LOOKED at the crankshaft to verify (there's that word again) it is cast, or are you assuming it is cast because you pulled off a cast crank balancer?

What I am getting at is, if you are going on the assumption it is cast because you pulled a cast crank balancer off, you may still be able to fix the problem with the right balancer/flexplate.

I think if you have not verified the crank with your own eyes, it's time to think about pulling the pan.

Lets not get caught up with all of this yet: ("Lets assume that this guy who put this engine together didn't balance the engine, which I can almost know for a fact he didn't.....")

Since we have not verified for 100% SURE which crank you have, lets ASSUME this can still be fixed rather easily and cheaply. Doesn't that sound better than possibly jumping the gun?

I think at this point, pulling the pan is the way to go. We can help you identify which crank you have. That's no sweat.

73AbodEE said:
Bill, are you sure this engine even has a cast crank in it ?
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Yup. So many things in question. This is
trudysduster said:
Yes, the damper I pulled off of the engine was the one pictured in post # 46 at the top. The # on it was 3830482 I believe. I found the paperwork on the new balancer I bought from 440 source. Part # is 200-1128. I left the weight on when I put the balancer on. Now I need to know something here. , would this cause a vibration especially if he put say old rods or other pistons in it. Also, the weights for the converter came in today from PTC that Kenny told me to put on the converter. I think someone said they put them on and it works . What do I do. weld them on or leave them off.
Click to expand...
 
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