Stalls in Gear, Automatic- Restarts Good- Can Slam it into Gear! EEEK

[Ferdinandbites]

Could use some old school help on my 76 Dodge Dart 318 Automatic. I've been trying to figure out why the engine stalls when I put it into gear (restarts immediately) and I've run out of ideas. There isn't anyone around that knows how to work on this thing that I can find, dealership, aftermarket garages other than me. Here's what I have done up until now and not only to correct this problem.
Compression good, new spark plugs, wire set, rotor, distributor cap, ignition coil, ignition module, set pick up gap because reluctor was touching pick up, ballast resistor, pcv, fuel electric pump, 7 psi pressure checked, new fuel filter, rebuilt carb, double checked float level and for holes, idles mint, starts mint, sweet spot with timing light, no vacuum leaks other than small one at egr which aprears that it was designed that way but replaced intake manifold gaskets, cleaned grounds, fluid levels up, . If I reve rpms high I can slam into gear and take off. Coming to a stop stalls but restarts. Doesn't seem to shudder just stalls. I can turn idle screw all that way up no difference. Cleaned firewall electrical connector real good. Doesn't have a lock up torque converter and a transmission guy said he didn't think that would be the problem unless bad shutter coming to stop. Good ground to distributor. Vacuum is good on my gauge can't remember the reading right now but its in the green kinda thing on the gauge (20 inches).
Any help would be much appreciated.

 

[340doc]

Have you adjusted the air mixture screws for highest vacuum? Stock cam and carb? Does the EGR have vacuum to it at idle?

 

[Phreakish]

Does your distributor have a vacuum can? Is it hooked up? Is it hooked to ported vacuum or manifold?

What's the 'sweet spot' for timing? An actual number is better than a spot ;) For a stockish 318, 10-14 BTDC with the vacuum can unplugged (you unplug it when checking timing, right?) should be a good start. You can try running with the can hooked to ported of manifold vacuum and see which works best.

Also like 340doc said, is the idle mix set for max idle vac and then backed out ~1/4 turn?

It's probably a combination of small tuning adjustments needed in the timing and carburetor mixture. What kind of carburetor is it?

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Have you adjusted the air mixture screws for highest vacuum? Stock cam and carb? Does the EGR have vacuum to it at idle?

yes adjusted for highest vacuum. yes stock cam and carb. no vacuum to egr.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Does your distributor have a vacuum can? Is it hooked up? Is it hooked to ported vacuum or manifold?
no can. dist hooked to side of carb.

What's the 'sweet spot' for timing? An actual number is better than a spot ;) For a stockish 318, 10-14 BTDC with the vacuum can unplugged (you unplug it when checking timing, right?) should be a good start. You can try running with the can hooked to ported of manifold vacuum and see which works best.

ive adjusted the distributor to either side of practically stalling and no difference to stallig issue.
Also like 340doc said, is the idle mix set for max idle vac and then backed out ~1/4 turn?

It's probably a combination of small tuning adjustments needed in the timing and carburetor mixture. What kind of carburetor is it?

carter bbd

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Have you adjusted the air mixture screws for highest vacuum? Stock cam and carb? Does the EGR have vacuum to it at idle?

I have to hold my foot on the fuel pedal above 1500 rpm to be able to keep the engine running when going into gear. im not sure if the idle is any longer a part of the problem.

 

[Phreakish]

I have to hold my foot on the fuel pedal above 1500 rpm to be able to keep the engine running when going into gear. im not sure if the idle is any longer a part of the problem.

Well, it should go into gear at idle. It won't without stalling. Idle IS the problem.

Once in gear, will it idle if you take your foot out of it?

 

[67Dart273]

Very very very FIRST thing is "where is the timing" and I DON'T mean "by the marks" without checking them.

You sure the timing is BEFORE tdc and not after? Try this......hook up your vacuum gauge, gently turn the dist CCW and see if vacuum increases. "Peak" the reading for max vacuum, and back your idle speed down with the screw as the vacuum goes up

THEN check your marks. Don't be surprised if it's 10BTC. Try re-starting the engine several times to be sure it does not kick back on the starter

IF the marks don't make sense, you need to CHECK the marks for accuracy using a piston stop Google "piston stop" or "how to use." Lots of info there

So with timing set for a fair amount of initial advance, AT LEAST 4BTC and perhaps 10, get the engine warm, and adjust the idle MIXTURE screws out some until the enge starts to slow. Keep the idle speed fairly low with the curb idle speed screw. Turn the screws slowly in, watching the vacuum, and listening. At some point, engine will slow a bit, vacuum will drop. THIS IS A subtle indication, you have to "watch" for it. Screw in/ out until you are sure this is right. Go back and forth between the two mixture until the peak is "right on." Then turn each screw in CW a bit for the "lean" side of the peak. idle speed / vacuum should drop the tiniest bit or not at all.

Last, reset your idle speed.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Well, it should go into gear at idle. It won't without stalling. Idle IS the problem.
but fuel must be added well above idle. idle is no longer sufficient to keep the engine running to go into gear.
Once in gear, will it idle if you take your foot out of it?

no stalls in any gear unless above 1500 rpms

 

[TrailBeast]

Doesn't sound like it starts and idles "mint" to me or it wouldn't be doing what it does.
AND if that truly is the case then you have a bad converter.
If you don't have a bad converter, then the engine doesn't run and idle "mint".

Get where this is going?

I have seen people driving cars with two cylinders missing because of out of order plug wires that say it runs great.
Can you video this problem in neutral at idle, then putting into gear at idle, then in gear with just enough throttle to keep it running?

My neighbor came in with a new/different car one day and asked me "well, what do you think?" "It sounds good doesn't it?"
My reply was "Sounds ok if it was a V6, but it's a V8 missing on at least two cylinders". (plug wires were wrong and when I put them in right it cleared right up)

Guess what he said?
"It doesn't sound as good as did"

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Very very very FIRST thing is "where is the timing" and I DON'T mean "by the marks" without checking them.

You sure the timing is BEFORE tdc and not after? Try this......hook up your vacuum gauge, gently turn the dist CCW and see if vacuum increases. "Peak" the reading for max vacuum, and back your idle speed down with the screw as the vacuum goes up

THEN check your marks. Don't be surprised if it's 10BTC. Try re-starting the engine several times to be sure it does not kick back on the starter

IF the marks don't make sense, you need to CHECK the marks for accuracy using a piston stop Google "piston stop" or "how to use." Lots of info there

So with timing set for a fair amount of initial advance, AT LEAST 4BTC and perhaps 10, get the engine warm, and adjust the idle MIXTURE screws out some until the enge starts to slow. Keep the idle speed fairly low with the curb idle speed screw. Turn the screws slowly in, watching the vacuum, and listening. At some point, engine will slow a bit, vacuum will drop. THIS IS A subtle indication, you have to "watch" for it. Screw in/ out until you are sure this is right. Go back and forth between the two mixture until the peak is "right on." Then turn each screw in CW a bit for the "lean" side of the peak. idle speed / vacuum should drop the tiniest bit or not at all.

Last, reset your idle speed.[/QUOTE

ok, im getting confused here, and don't get me wrong but if I keep my foot on that pedal to 1500 rpms and above, that freaking high, in order to keep the engine running to get into gear you think its a timing issue? I don't have a specific timing mark reading yet but I unloosened and adjusted the timing to many different positions, yes not accurately but just to see what happens and no matter what setting the engine will not stay running unless I increase the rpms pretty high.
as a side not I did hook a light to it and although the engine runs real nice other that an interittient slight stumble the mark wasn't anywhere near the marks. I mean way the hell out to the left of all the marks. I just thought was doing something wrong because if this thing was out a tooth I don't think it would run this nice or would it?
I appreciate your help though and I will try what you have suggested to rule another thing out of the way because im so damn frustrated with spending all this time to get this thing operational.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Doesn't sound like it starts and idles "mint" to me or it wouldn't be doing what it does. trust me it start and runs great its only when in gear it stalls what more can I tell you
AND if that truly is the case then you have a bad converter. no converter
If you don't have a bad converter, then the engine doesn't run and idle "mint".

Get where this is going?

I have seen people driving cars with two cylinders missing because of out of order plug wires that say it runs great.
Can you video this problem in neutral at idle, then putting into gear at idle, then in gear with just enough throttle to keep it running? sure if that make you a believer

My neighbor came in with a new/different car one day and asked me "well, what do you think?" "It sounds good doesn't it?"
My reply was "Sounds ok if it was a V6, but it's a V8 missing on at least two cylinders". (plug wires were wrong and when I put them in right it cleared right up)

Guess what he said?
"It doesn't sound as good as did"

im a mechanic by trade. now not completely familiar with this older vehicle and no longer in the trade but something is not right about having to have the rpms that high fine if it didn't idle properly, missed, stumbled but it idles fine.

 

[Bulldozer]

7 lbs of fuel pressure is way too much. You are probably forcing fuel past the needle and seat killing it with gas. I bet that exhaust would make your eyes water. You want around 4.5 to 5 for that carb

 

[Phreakish]

im a mechanic by trade. now not completely familiar with this older vehicle and no longer in the trade but something is not right about having to have the rpms that high fine if it didn't idle properly, missed, stumbled but it idles fine.

Sounds like your car is in tip-top shape then. Obviously none of the rest of the folks commenting know anything about these particular cars. Just keep the revs up and you'll be OK.

Your car is not idling 'fine'. A car that 'idles fine' will idle in gear. Something isn't setup right and you don't want to hear it. Your idle settings, whether fuel related (carb, fuel pressure) or ignition (timing, timing, timing) are off. Still no indication of what the idle timing ACTUALLY is. No indication of what the idle vacuum ACTUALLY is. All you've told us is that you've changed everything, and that it runs great, but won't idle in gear or when you come to a stop. I guess you should just quit stopping ;)

 

[67Dart273]

Doesn't sound like it starts and idles "mint" to me or........... if that truly is the case then you have a bad converter........(OR)............ two cylinders missing because of out of order plug wires ..........

This is pretty much what I was thinking.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

7 lbs of fuel pressure is way too much. You are probably forcing fuel past the needle and seat killing it with gas. I bet that exhaust would make your eyes water. You want around 4.5 to 5 for that carb

yessssssssss my eyes water, you get this, but how could I reduce the pressure? can seem to find a pump lower. they all seem to be withing a certain range no specific pressure I can set or buy.

 

[mguner]

Is the rebuilt carb the original with a kit or an over the counter replacement? If you put a kit in it the chances are the base to main body gasket from the kit was incorrect. If you have the old one re use it and the car should run ok.

 

[Darthomas]

yessssssssss my eyes water, you get this, but how could I reduce the pressure? can seem to find a pump lower. they all seem to be withing a certain range no specific pressure I can set or buy.

Why not rely on the cam operated fuel pump? I've had crap in float needle valves that overfilled an AFB, and my otherwise perfectly running engine was doing exactly as you describe.
Check the needle valve into the carb, and see if float looks bad. Consider rebuilding the carb. Too much fuel pressure will force open the needle valve at some point.
If it starts again out of gear right away, it didn't die from flooding, but ifyou have to 10 seconds to start it, it's drowning rich.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Sounds like your car is in tip-top shape then. Obviously none of the rest of the folks commenting know anything about these particular cars. Just keep the revs up and you'll be OK.

Your car is not idling 'fine'. A car that 'idles fine' will idle in gear. Something isn't setup right and you don't want to hear it. Your idle settings, whether fuel related (carb, fuel pressure) or ignition (timing, timing, timing) are off. Still no indication of what the idle timing ACTUALLY is. No indication of what the idle vacuum ACTUALLY is. All you've told us is that you've changed everything, and that it runs great, but won't idle in gear or when you come to a stop. I guess you should just quit stopping ;)

7 lbs of fuel pressure is way too much. You are probably forcing fuel past the needle and seat killing it with gas. I bet that exhaust would make your eyes water. You want around 4.5 to 5 for that carb

Sounds like your car is in tip-top shape then. Obviously none of the rest of the folks commenting know anything about these particular cars. Just keep the revs up and you'll be OK.

Your car is not idling 'fine'. A car that 'idles fine' will idle in gear. Something isn't setup right and you don't want to hear it. Your idle settings, whether fuel related (carb, fuel pressure) or ignition (timing, timing, timing) are off. Still no indication of what the idle timing ACTUALLY is. No indication of what the idle vacuum ACTUALLY is. All you've told us is that you've changed everything, and that it runs great, but won't idle in gear or when you come to a stop. I guess you should just quit stopping ;)

ok, I apologize guys. I is not my intention to seek your help and then prove that I am right here by saying that you guys don't know anything. it would appear that you do. I only mentioned that im a mechanic to let you know that im not the average person leaning how this all works, although I feel as if im always having to learn something. I just thought that if one was to go beyond the point of idle and things still did run right then maybe it could be something else, lets say a transmission concern but im wrong and it is obvious that this is still an idle concern because the vehicle is not moving.

the timing I will have to find out more about. I can only say that no matter where I set it it doesn't change the stalling, that I cant tell where its at because I believe that something was installed inccorectly and the mark is wayyyy offffff to the left of the timing perameters. yet the engine appears to run fine outside of when its in gear, eg no knocking and when can take off in gear no appearant driveability concerns (other than stalling coming to a stop with lower than 1500 rpms). ill have to research the piston stop that you are referring to. maybe it will help. How about this if this thing jumped a tooth could it exhibit these problems? There is some slack in the chain.

vacuum- I know its 20 inches at idle.

fuel pressure- 7 psi

restarts immediatly

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Is the rebuilt carb the original with a kit or an over the counter replacement? If you put a kit in it the chances are the base to main body gasket from the kit was incorrect. If you have the old one re use it and the car should run ok.

yes, I rebuilt it with the kit. i will reinstall the other gasket. thank you

 

[Ferdinandbites]

Why not rely on the cam operated fuel pump? I bought it with the electric pump newly installed because the guy stated that he wanted to have the thing fire up right away without any issues but I have always wondered about this contributing possibly being the problem, wow maybe ill reinstall the mechanical pump then to give it a try) I've had crap in float needle valves that overfilled an AFB, and my otherwise perfectly running engine was doing exactly as you describe.
Check the needle valve into the carb, and see if float looks bad. Consider rebuilding the carb. Too much fuel pressure will force open the needle valve at some point.
If it starts again out of gear right away, it didn't die from flooding, but ifyou have to 10 seconds to start it, it's drowning rich.

i took the carb apart again thinking that something got in there but didn't see anything. starts right up immediately. i agree don't believe its flooding.

 

[Phreakish]

How about this if this thing jumped a tooth could it exhibit these problems? There is some slack in the chain.

vacuum- I know its 20 inches at idle.

fuel pressure- 7 psi

restarts immediatly

It's possible the chain jumped, but you'd likely have other symptoms. Even if it did jump, fixing the timing and fuel delivery will make it easier to diagnose that.

You've replaced all the small bits, and the transmission is probably OK. That means the most likely culprit is in the timing or fuel delivery, and these are easy to work on.

Timing can be all over the place and 'run just fine'. Hell, it could be 5 degrees ATDC and with the mechanical advance coming in at higher revs it will drive pretty OK but run like poo at low revs.

Timing can also have an effect on the way things burn in the engine, and cause an exhaust stench that will cause watery eyes and smelly garages. 7psi is high, but if it fires right back up then it may not be flooded. It will be tough to tell without either an oxygen sensor setup, or the timing set correctly. See where this is headed? Timing first.

Use the piston stop to verify where the timing mark points on the balancer. Assume nothing. Searching will yield a lot of info - use the stop in both directions. Meaning turn the engine on way up against the stop, then the other. TDC will be between the two resulting marks.

Then it's simply a matter of doing what 67Dart273 said up in post #8

Also, make sure all your changes are made/done on a warm engine. Small changes are OK when cold, especially as far as timing goes. But any mixture changes, and final idle settings should occur on a FULLY warmed engine, which means 170+ degrees, better if it's at the thermostat temperature range (190+).

 

[Ferdinandbites]

It's possible the chain jumped, but you'd likely have other symptoms. Even if it did jump, fixing the timing and fuel delivery will make it easier to diagnose that.

You've replaced all the small bits, and the transmission is probably OK. That means the most likely culprit is in the timing or fuel delivery, and these are easy to work on.
i appreciate your optimism, i could really use that right now!
Timing can be all over the place and 'run just fine'. Hell, it could be 5 degrees ATDC and with the mechanical advance coming in at higher revs it will drive pretty OK but run like poo at low revs.

Timing can also have an effect on the way things burn in the engine, and cause an exhaust stench that will cause watery eyes and smelly garages. 7psi is high, but if it fires right back up then it may not be flooded. It will be tough to tell without either an oxygen sensor setup, or the timing set correctly. See where this is headed? Timing first.
i get ya, and yes, damn, my eyes burn, the mixture seems awefully off and im going through a lot of fuel. yes im going to get on to the timing. it just has to be confirmed. that's why some of these less time consuming parts were put on to quicky rule them out. besides it seemed right to do after what seems a very long time of not maintaining this thing.
Use the piston stop to verify where the timing mark points on the balancer. Assume nothing. Searching will yield a lot of info - use the stop in both directions. Meaning turn the engine on way up against the stop, then the other. TDC will be between the two resulting marks.
your right i can no longer assume anything. i just watched a video on the stop and i appreciate you telling me about this because that's new to me. it should do the job. im sure a jobber will be able to source one.

Then it's simply a matter of doing what 67Dart273 said up in post #8

Also, make sure all your changes are made/done on a warm engine. Small changes are OK when cold, especially as far as timing goes. But any mixture changes, and final idle settings should occur on a FULLY warmed engine, which means 170+ degrees, better if it's at the thermostat temperature range (190+).

something about idle, although i rebuilt the carb following the specific instructions i had great trouble maintaining the idle even with the screw turned all the way in. so i went back to the metering rod and adjusted it all the way out and its far better now and idle good but its on the edge of popping out of its containment hooks.
i feel like this thing has been a real surprise bag of multiple problems. i was so happy this thing cost me 2g's now i can honestly say that the sight of this thing is beginning to curl my stomach every time i see it. i just have to make this thing work to changes how i feel around. i wanna tear of the street, burn the tires off and get a call from the cops like i did when i was 19 with my first v8 back in the day to feel better, ha.
thank you for all your help so far to all. i really felt i was alone on this up until now.

 

[Bulldozer]

All im going to add is that 7 lbs of fuel pressure is too damn high for a 2 barrel carburetor . Until you get it down to 5 , you will continue to have problems outside of any thing else you do to it. Plug in a factory fuel pump until you get everything else dialed in and then go back to the electric if you must.

 

[Ferdinandbites]

All im going to add is that 7 lbs of fuel pressure is too damn high for a 2 barrel carburetor . Until you get that at 5 , you will continue to have problems outside of any thing else you do to it. Plug in a factory fuel pump until you get everything else dialed in and then go back to the electric if you must.

id prefer the original mechanical anyway. just seemed strange that they removed it. i will do that. i certainly have a number of things to do and will follow up asap. now hopefully the pump works and or i can find a lower pressure pump.
thank you for your help, much appreciated, and to everyone else too! this really is a community thread and to of course the site forabodiesonly.com