need a heads recommendation Compression related.

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Dubs Chops

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Guys, I currently have a 360 that is bored 60 over. the pistons that it came with are KB 190 that figure 10.5-1 with 72cc heads. that is figured at 30 over so I am not sure if being 60 over will help bring the compression down some.

My question is, is there an aluminum head for the SB 360 with a 72cc or bigger chamber so I could get away from the possibility of detonation? I was thinking of going E85 but with the whole setup I could just about switch to aluminum heads and probably get more power.

thanks,

BW
 
The larger bore brings compression up, not down, but it;s a very small amount. I wouldn't worry about detonation with an aluminum head, regardless of chamber volume, unless you run such a small camshaft it doesn't bring cylinder pressure down at all.
 
The "normal" AL heads have Combustion Chamber Volume of 65CC or less. Edelbrock 60779 are 63.

I wish I had the confidence the RRR has about detonation with a AL head. But if you are already at 10.5:1 at 72CC!
 
Working this combination with a stock LA deck height, a standard Felpro 8553PT head gasket at .051" thick, 1 cc in the crevice down to the top ring. and .060" over bore, I come up with 9.85:1 SCR. So the 10.5 numbers are not quite right. You are better off than you think...

What you really care about is the DCR (dynamic compression ratio) which varies with the cam and cam timing, and ultimately the effective DCR, which drops with increasing altitude. The altitude in Tulsa is <1000' so you can pretty much forget about any altitude effects. But the cam is going to vary the DCR.

So we need some cam info to say further. If you really need/want to drop SCR and DCR, then this may be a case where an older type, slow ramp, 'long-tailed' cam will be right.

If you want to use E85, check out all the articles online... they will all tell you that E85 can run with much HIGHER SCR's. So E85 on this setup would leave a lot on the table.

As for AL heads, I am not aware of any in that chamber size. But the extra breathing would indeed be nice.

BTW, you can easily add 2-3 cc's to your existing chambers with some valve work and some very mild grinding in the chambers. I've takne 75 cc heads up to 83-84 cc's. (And did not hit water! Whew.) You can polish the chambers to help fight detonation and get out some material at the same time.
 
Working this combination with a stock LA deck height, a standard Felpro 8553PT head gasket at .051" thick, 1 cc in the crevice down to the top ring. and .060" over bore, I come up with 9.85:1 SCR. So the 10.5 numbers are not quite right. You are better off than you think...

What you really care about is the DCR (dynamic compression ratio) which varies with the cam and cam timing, and ultimately the effective DCR, which drops with increasing altitude. The altitude in Tulsa is <1000' so you can pretty much forget about any altitude effects. But the cam is going to vary the DCR.

So we need some cam info to say further. If you really need/want to drop SCR and DCR, then this may be a case where an older type, slow ramp, 'long-tailed' cam will be right.

If you want to use E85, check out all the articles online... they will all tell you that E85 can run with much HIGHER SCR's. So E85 on this setup would leave a lot on the table.

As for AL heads, I am not aware of any in that chamber size. But the extra breathing would indeed be nice.

BTW, you can easily add 2-3 cc's to your existing chambers with some valve work and some very mild grinding in the chambers. I've takne 75 cc heads up to 83-84 cc's. (And did not hit water! Whew.) You can polish the chambers to help fight detonation and get out some material at the same time.

Ill chime in with some other info in a bit but the cam is an XE274H
 
Also, with E85, you’ll want to run more compression to take advantage of the possible higher ratios you can run. With E85, 10.5-1 is nothing.
 
Working this combination with a stock LA deck height, a standard Felpro 8553PT head gasket at .051" thick, 1 cc in the crevice down to the top ring. and .060" over bore, I come up with 9.85:1 SCR. So the 10.5 numbers are not quite right. You are better off than you think...

What you really care about is the DCR (dynamic compression ratio) which varies with the cam and cam timing, and ultimately the effective DCR, which drops with increasing altitude. The altitude in Tulsa is <1000' so you can pretty much forget about any altitude effects. But the cam is going to vary the DCR.

So we need some cam info to say further. If you really need/want to drop SCR and DCR, then this may be a case where an older type, slow ramp, 'long-tailed' cam will be right.

If you want to use E85, check out all the articles online... they will all tell you that E85 can run with much HIGHER SCR's. So E85 on this setup would leave a lot on the table.

As for AL heads, I am not aware of any in that chamber size. But the extra breathing would indeed be nice.

BTW, you can easily add 2-3 cc's to your existing chambers with some valve work and some very mild grinding in the chambers. I've takne 75 cc heads up to 83-84 cc's. (And did not hit water! Whew.) You can polish the chambers to help fight detonation and get out some material at the same time.
FWIW, I am wondering if you calculated that with the small dome that piston has?
 
I am running 10.81 static compression with 58 cc aluminum heads and KB 107 pistons.
I was able to get my combo down to 177 psi with a late intake closing cam, and slightly thicker head gaskets.
I have seen no detonation at all running pump gas.
 
Are you having detonation issues? Your CR isn't that high for pump gas.
No not yet. However to maximize 1/4 mile and tuning possibilities with timing and id like better flowing heads if I could gain little safety net at the same time it'd be nice.
 
FWIW, I am wondering if you calculated that with the small dome that piston has?
Yessir.... and it is good to ask the question. KB makes certain assumptions on their CR number listings. I get their numbers if I assume a Magnum standard block height (rather than a standard LA block height) and a .039" thick head gasket.

BTW running some quick numbers, that flat dome is probably around .040"-.045" high above the compression height; it takes that to make the -1.2 cc head volume with typical eyebrows. That does not quite jive with the KB notes but the numbers say what it needs to be. So OP, if you have assembled the short block, maybe you can confirm that the pistons stick above the block at TDC? Like around .030" for an LA block...?

No not yet. However to maximize 1/4 mile and tuning possibilities with timing and id like better flowing heads if I could gain little safety net at the same time it'd be nice.
Taking your xe274 cam, and doing a DCR computation, that ends up at 7.95, with the cam installed dot-to-dot... i.e., with the cam mfr's standard ground in cam advance. Your cranking pressures ought to be around 160 psi, not awfully high, but where you need to start paying attention to everything that could lead to detonation.

FWIW, I've run 10.3 SCR and 8.3 DCR with iron heads on 93 pump at around 1000-2000'; 165-ish cranking pressures at 1000' so a tad higher than your setup. No issues that I could not manage; could not use regular, and I needed to stay conservative on ignition advance. That engine did have mild quench to help fight detonation, which you won't have with the open chamber heads. Put almost 100k miles on it.

(BTW, you don't need as much ignition timing in general with higher CR's, though more advance is usually better for open chamber heads. As I understand things, the higher peak cylinder pressure and better peak timing that you achieve with timing advance comes with the higher CR's to some degree.)

As an exercise, I've computed up some 63 cc Edelbrock closed chamber heads with these pistons. (ProMaxx lists 65 cc's as an option but I don't know of they are still strictly closed chambers. You might inquire.) Put in a .065" thick head gasket to work with my assumed piston height above deck of around .030" (Needs confirming! If I am wrong, all this is wrong.) and get to .035" quench gap. (It is not a prefect quench gap with that dome not going to the edges of the piston top, but it still ought to provide some quench effect.)

With all that (and assuming my thoughts about the piston dome are right... did I say that needs confirming? LOL), the SCR is now
10.6 and DCR is 8.5. Hmmmm.... a few more tweaks, like a .070" head gasket, and a 279 duration cam, like a Voodoo 703, and the SCR is 10.4 and the DCR is now 8.25. Getting pretty safe now with quench and AL heads, though you still need to take the proper care.

BTW, are you stuck with the 91 octane there in Tulsa? And do you have an LA block?
 
Yup if you factor in the quench that everybody just has to have, he'll be even safer. I don't think there's any way that combo would ever spark knock even at 10.5.
 
I have spoken to guys at promaxx, they are great to talk to, the heads are closed chambered and they can get you 66CC if you need a little bigger chamber. I am piecing my parts together and going that route, it will make my stroker 11:1 SCR with a 274 Comp hydraulic roller.
 
No knock here with Eddies at 185psi, and running 87E10@ 32/34* power-timing. Goes like you know what! I did run a little more at one time.
Interesting mention there AJ.
Tell us about the cam and how it was installed.
 
Why sure , glad you asked,lol
4.04x3.58=367 cubes
>the first cam was the Mopar 292/.508, in everywhere from 108 to 100 and even at 110. The Scr was 11.3
>I didn't like that cam and very quickly sold it and installed a little 270/276/110 Hughes HE2430AL, now discontinued. I tore the engine down and decked it to pop the pistons up .005, then used the FelPro 1008s. This dropped the Scr down to 10.9, and loosened the Q to .034. THAT was what I wanted; tons and tons of low speed torque.
> but in the 4th summer,that cam dropped lobes,so then the next cam was the Hughes HE3037 w/ specs of 276/286/110.. and I installed it also at 10.9Scr and in at 106. This cam swapped away more bottom end than I expected for only a little gain up top, it seemed. But I learned to rev that badboy and found the power. At the bottom I installed the 3.09 gearbox and got the TM back. I ran all of these, some eventually, with 3.55s.

All of these installs ran between 177 and 188psi,or a little more. Actually the current install is the lowest at about 177.
And the engine has never needed more than 87E10. That is since 2009 and over 100,000 miles, and counting.

My next combo is gonna run a tighter LSA and more pressure.
EDIT, and it might have fewer cubes.....
 
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No knock here with Eddies at 185psi, and running 87E10@ 32/34* power-timing. Goes like you know what! I did run a little more at one time.
So it is fair to say that there is a sweet spot for valve timing events that you have found?
Dispite cam size for that engine and/or others?

(Closest I see from Hughesengine to that older cam; Hughes Engines )
 
No knock here with Eddies at 185psi, and running 87E10@ 32/34* power-timing. Goes like you know what! I did run a little more at one time.
Where are you buying gas for your car? I have purchased 87 in every corner of this province and most of it is not even good enough to run a lawn tractor on never mind a high compression car engine on.
 
So it is fair to say that there is a sweet spot for valve timing events that you have found?
Dispite cam size for that engine and/or others?

(Closest I see from Hughesengine to that older cam; Hughes Engines ) You have to go into the archives
That is a most excellent question and I never thought about it... but all my three cams have been installed with ICAs of 62 to about 68 degrees. I don't know if that means anything. The 292 had the latest ICA ( up to 76* when retarded),and I couldn't love that cam. The 270 had the earliest and That I did love. I even loved that one straight up, now with an ICA of 65.
I built that engine with a certain amount of flexibility going in because I was kindof pioneering out here. No one was talking about Dcr or cylinder pressure. The engine shops were saying 9.5 was tops for 91 gas. I wasn't buying it. I had to work out by calculator and protractor, and write my own formulas for figuring Dcr. Then to top it off, aluminum heads had just come out about that year 1999, so nobody could tell me how that was gonna affect the Dcr. So I winged it, guessing high, and ready to spring for a meth-injection kit. It just never happened. As it turns out, I actually came in low. I probably couldda run closer to 200 on 91; others here on FABO have said that they are over 200 on pump gas, with aluminum heads. But I'm quite happy at 177 and 87E10.
 
Where are you buying gas for your car? I have purchased 87 in every corner of this province and most of it is not even good enough to run a lawn tractor on never mind a high compression car engine on.
I haven't purchased in every corner, only in; South-Central,Winnipeg,Brandon,Gimli, Steinbach,and Thompson. It all burns just fine in my aluminum headed 367.Our pumps all say "may contain UP TO 10% ethanol",well that ain't no big thing.
I think Rusty nailed it, back in post #2.
I wouldn't worry about detonation with an aluminum head, regardless of chamber volume, unless you run such a small camshaft it doesn't bring cylinder pressure down at all.

And it all burns just fine in all my lawn N garden stuff too.........after I fix the daymn lean carbs they ship on the daymn China junk. I am at 930 feet.
Send me a Pm if you wanna talk
 
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I haven't purchased in every corner, only in; South-Central,Winnipeg,Brandon,Gimli, Steinbach,and Thompson. It all burns just fine in my aluminum headed 367.Our pumps all say "may contain UP TO 10% ethanol",well that ain't no big thing.
I think Rusty nailed it, back in post #2.

And it all burns just fine in all my lawn N garden stuff too.........after I fix the daymn lean carbs they ship on the daymn China junk. I am at 930 feet.
Send me a Pm if you wanna talk

I lived in every place you listed for at least a year...except Gimli, but my parents live there half the year so I’m there quite a bit.
The only local fuel I have any great luck with is shell premium, I run it in everything except for the newer 5.0 Mustang my wife drives,she just runs regular co-op gas in that thing.
Even in my lawn equipment E87 goes bad in a few months or it gums up the carb jets in no time...I would not dare to even try it in my 9.5 comp 340 with the iron heads.
 
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