318 or 360 Roller Swap

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Benfica73

Benfica73

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Found 2 engines to potentially swap into my 73 Swinger. Old guy wants $300 bucks for either one. Both engines are in vans. First engine is an '89 TBI 318 while the other is a 1992 TBI 360. Both are similar mileage and both run strong and quiet. Currently my car has a bad LA 318 with a lock-up 904 and a 7 1/4 rear. I have a 8 3/4 to swap in which has 2.76 gears.

I'm hoping to have a fun street car, cruiser while still being able to keep up with the 80's stock 5.0 stangs that a few friends of mine have. Besides having to run an eccentric on the cam to run my fuel pump and potentially a weighted flexplate if I go with the 360, is there anything else that I'm missing?

I have an Eddy 318/360 Performer intake and 600 Eddy carb to swap on the engine that I choose. I also have a new Retro 340 Purple cam and lifters sitting on my shelf. Even though both engines are rollers, is installing this cam an option? Or is an expensive roller cam the way to go? Or should I go a different route?
 
Stock the 360 is 245 horse. You will need the extra torque of the 360 to keep up with 4 speed auto and 5 speed manual 5.0 mustangs assuming you keep it stock. My 1990 Mustang GT ran 14.7 at 94 stock with 2.73 gears and 5 speed.

Even though the roller cam is more expensive you will have to replace more parts with flat tappet switch. You may be able to reuse the pushrods and roller tappets if you stay with a roller cam.
 
Ok, so by going with the 360, can anyone suggest a nice roller cam? Or would sending the factory 360 cam to hughes for them to grind be the way to go?

Thanks again
 
If you put a cam in it, you will very likely have to make other changes as well. Headers, a TC ,and probably gears. Those three are intimately related. Knowing that; I suggest leaving the cam alone for now, and putting gears in first. Then, almost magically the 360 might have enough giddy-up for you.
A swap to 3.55s from 2.76s is over 28% more torque multiplication and the engine will really wake up.If you have no concept of what this 28% means;it is HUGE! Short of supercharging it, no other change can compare,especially for the dollars spent..
 
lots of places to get a regrind, keep it at .500" or less and the LSA 112 or 114 and it will work well until you get some real gears. A magnum block should have better pistons in it for same price point. Better heads too.
 
That appears to be a 360 LA Roller motor. I thought it was a Magnum 360 but they did not come out with that in the vans till later. That motor stock will not make much power. It is closer to 155 horse stock.
 
If u don't want to be disappointed
Port your intake , port your heads get a good valve job and call any cam company and have a cam ground for your head flow numbers . That's the proper way to do things and it will cost u a little more but be done right. Trust me u only want to do it one time u can build the car around the motor .
 
Wow! These LA roller engines in stock form were that low on power? Looks like I'd be disappointed for sure unless I rebuild one of these with more performance in mind.
 
Benfica73 said:
Wow! These LA roller engines in stock form were that low on power? Looks like I'd be disappointed for sure unless I rebuild one of these with more performance in mind.
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I put a '89 360 TBI in a full size '89 D150 2wd short bed that came with a 3.9 TBI. Stock auto, 3.21 gears and 15" tires, I went 15.30's. 100% bone stock motor with manifolds and single exhaust!!!! My truck scaled at over 3700 lbs.

The '89 360 will have 308 heads. My '89 came with a fuel pump eccentric already on it even though it was TBI

I would think just dropping it in your car you'd be beating your friends 'stang.
 
Thanks "318willrun" for the real life feedback. Would you perform any mods to the 360 before it goes into the car? You said it should have 308 heads, is there a cam or specific size of cam that you think would work well? I've been following your low buck 318 build. Would you recommend the same cylinder head work as the videos you've posted?
 
Home porting the cylinder heads would benefit from at least opening up the bowl area. Adding a mild cam is always a help. But my opinion is just dropping the engine in with a good dual exhaust should put you close to mid 14's, and it appears that is all the faster you are interested in going. My truck would best the late 80's/early 90's 5.0 automatics if they were bone stock. The 5.0 auto's ran 15.50's at our track if they were stock. But keep in mind I'm a tune freak. I never plop a motor in and say "it runs good" and leave it alone. I will tune to pull every last tenth out of it.
 
rkite said:
Stock the 360 is 245 horse. You will need the extra torque of the 360 to keep up with 4 speed auto and 5 speed manual 5.0 mustangs assuming you keep it stock. My 1990 Mustang GT ran 14.7 at 94 stock with 2.73 gears and 5 speed.

Even though the roller cam is more expensive you will have to replace more parts with flat tappet switch. You may be able to reuse the pushrods and roller tappets if you stay with a roller cam.
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Not that 360. That 360 is stock like 180, if that. A 1992 TBI 360 has the small 360LD cam, they are world's apart from the E58 or Magnum motors. I see you caught it, but the 360 was a year behind on all that. 360s weren't rollers until they were TBI in '89 while 318/3.9 had rollers before TBI and were TBI in '88 while 360s only had 4bbls in '88. The LD 500 came out before the 518 (46RH) did, so 318s and 3.9s were OD earlier, same thing in that 318s and 3.9s offered 5spds while 360s didn't. '93 is when 360s got the Magnum stuff 3.9s and 318s got. The 360s are better than the 318s, just not much. The changes too place across the board in all vehicles simultaneously, vans got it when trucks did- Daks and Jeeps didn't offer 360s then and Jeeps weren't made in '92 with SBMs. I'd run a stock 340/360 intake over the Performer.

Regrinding the/a roller to the 340 cam specs would be a better move than putting a flat tappet cam in a roller block in my mind.

magnummopar said:
lots of places to get a regrind, keep it at .500" or less and the LSA 112 or 114 and it will work well until you get some real gears. A magnum block should have better pistons in it for same price point. Better heads too.
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Even though the pistons are different I think the CR amounts to the same CC:CC but the heads being tighter chambers raises the CR. Definitely an improvement though.
 
My understanding is that the valve train won't handle much lift. I saw the number posted elsewhere, if I can find it I'll reference it here. The cam that's in there is the same one that was used in the magnum crate motors so it's not a total dog.

The 308 heads can have an issue with over scavenging, drawing the intake charge into the exhaust. You might want to run a cooler plug and give some thought to your exhaust setup.

I haven't been able to confirm compression ratio on these motors, some sources say 8:1, others (like the FSM) say 9.2:1. HP is in the 190 range @4000, but the tbi is limited to around 550-600 cfm so I can't say how much you are giving up there. Torque is 285@1600. I wonder if it wouldn't be worth retarding the cam a few degrees?

EDIT: Don't forget to block the air injection ports.
 
the 318 should have the 302 heads and would match up with engine parts you already have better, the 360 should have the 308 heads and has alot more power potential!! but you need to sale that carb and intake and buy better for the 360! use the factory roller cam parts and lifters, get cam reground to match your combo! then get sure grip and gears under it! match up a converter..it could be a real strong runner for sure!
 
IMO, the 318/360 intake is fine. If you want to open the ports on it a little that would help. They aren't that far behind a performer RPM with a little elbow grease work. An RPM is a better intake.

Get the 360 and leave the roller in it. Find a cam core and send it out to regrind it. IIRC, that engine should have shaft rockers and be fine to lifts in the .500 range with a decent spring change.
 
crackedback said:
IMO, the 318/360 intake is fine. If you want to open the ports on it a little that would help. They aren't that far behind a performer RPM with a little elbow grease work. An RPM is a better intake.

Get the 360 and leave the roller in it. Find a cam core and send it out to regrind it. IIRC, that engine should have shaft rockers and be fine to lifts in the .500 range with a decent spring change.
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The performer will work better on the 318 than the 360. I'm looking at a 360 swap and will be using a factory cast iron 340 intake over the performer to take advantage of the bigger ports. I want to keep stock AC so intake options are limited.

If your 73 still has it's original manifolds, you should be ok on the exhaust. They superseded to a thick flange small block manifold in 73, the earlier 318 manifolds are too thin for the 360s.

Yeah from what I am reading the springs are the weak point on the 5.9 tbi's.
 
You may also want to swap to the magnum lifters, which are now factory replacement on the 360. There may have been an issue with the tbi ones, and that might explain why there seem to be so many remanned/warranty tbi 5.9s out there.
 
only real difference in the lifters is that the magnums oil through the pushrods
spend no money there do keep the rollers pay for springs
with that axle ratio keep the cam short, even keep the stock one till you get it sorted out, run a compression check and see where it's at and where on the rpm/ torque curve you want more torque
what crackedblock said-- oops crackedback
performer vs stock is mostly weight and $$$
headers would increase any overscavange issue if any, never run into it myself with short cams or wider lca cams
as said if you can pocket port your own heads B4 you do seats and guides
if you are not going to do seats and guides just do a basic clean up
or just put it in (new valve springs AND VITON SEALS)and run it of the compression is good you can do these without pulling the heads and making a major project out of it
IDK about rocker shaft 360 rollers, can you change the cam without pulling the heads?
never tried it but would be good to know
read the thread on timing chains
as you said you will need a balance 360 flexplate or weights and harmonic ballancer is different so no swaps there
no reason to swithc to a carb for a daily driver esp if U are in cold weather
 
Any one that thinks the 318/360 is a dog manifold with a little port opening work has never tested one and seen the results. It ran within 5 hp of an air gap with a lot hotter cam and heads... The intake works fine, he has it and the cam/heads are going to be the choke point.

Don't like the edelbrock script, grind it off! Paint it engine color.

Save your money for a better converter if an auto car!
 
crackedback said:
Any one that thinks the 318/360 is a dog manifold with a little port opening work has never tested one and seen the results.
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It's a great manifold for a 318 because that's what it was designed for. It can be a good intake for a 360 if you want to put the time into hogging it out.
 
Did I not mention putting a little work into the port openings? It takes about 5 minutes per port. It has 360 cast right into it... guess edelbrock messed that up too. It would run the same as a stock 340 intake IMO or VERY close in stock form.

You win... LD4b's suck on a 340/360 as well... :)

A stealth intake has some dinky ports too and that seems to get recommended for 340-360's all the time.

Let the red herring issues continue.
 
I don't care if it says 360, the ports don't come close to matching up. If he wants to spend the time that's his decision but out of the box it's a 318 manifold. And for all the hype about the LD4B, that was a 273 manifold. Which is why the LD340 was born.

What are you getting so worked up about? I am using a cast iron 340 intake because I already own it and I'm cheap, I don't have to port it, and I want to run factory AC. He can run whatever he wants but he should be allowed to make an informed decision.
 
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