W2 valve size recommendations

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replicaracer43

Grumpy Old Man
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Fixing to do up a set of W2 heads, that have never been assembled. Any of you head gurus, or engine builders wanna give me a recommendation of what size to cut them for? My last set was 2.05/1.60 but I didn't build those. I will port these, and intend to use a solid roller in the neighborhood of 590-620 lift, on a 365 inch smallblock. Drag race only, nostalgia 4 speed car, expect the power band to be 5000 to maybe as much as 7500 rpm...I appreciate ANY input or suggestions!
 
what ever valve size use smaller 11/32 stems......I think I would go 2.05 ...1.60 ...
 
A wait for the actual members that machine parts. I e done some home head work before. Minor rebuilding, spring seat area machining for larger springs. EZ stuff.

I could suggest that you use the largest intake valve you can get in there, within reason, no trick work. Thinnest stem possible. But that’s the no brainer right?!?!

I also have a bare set (4 heads actually) not quite ready to be messed with.
I’d like to know the actual valves and part numbers needed/suggested to be use in a similar application.
 


If it was me (most people are thankful they aren’t me) I would spend some time looking at the exhaust side very close. I haven’t done it yet because I haven’t had the time, but I will when I get the chance. Anyway, I think a 1.600 valve is too big for that port. I’m pretty sure (just from doing a bunch of this stuff but this is still a working theory) that a 1.550 exhaust valve can be used with 45* seat with a bowl of 87-88% and still fit most of the radius under the 45. I have for a long time now stopped doing much work to the exhaust port, because it’s about air speed and shape, and not about cross section like the intake side.

You can keep grinding on the exhaust port and it will flow more on the bench. You can keep adding valve size to the exhaust and it will flow more. Hell, there was a time when every BBC I did got a 1.94 exhaust valve! That’s HUGE. Way too big and it’s a power killer. At last check (it’s hard to keep up with some of this stuff, people don’t tell you everything because it costs so much to learn, people flat lie) Pro Stock is only using a 1.800 exhaust valve.

I believe if you run a 50* seat you can fit a 1.500 exhaust in there. I haven’t proofed that yet, but I think I can, with a 95-96% bowl, still get the radius under the 50 and get a nice top cut on there. IMO, the smallest exhaust valve you can fit with your choice of valve job is the best thing you can do for the exhaust side. Minimal change of cross section, very limited port enlargement (the less the better). That’s my thoughts on W2 exhaust sizing. It’s a very good port (even in 2020 it still humbles many exhaust ports of today) so do the least amount of valve and keep the port as small as you possible can. Air speed is your friend here. Clean, quiet air speed and don’t worry about what the flow bench says for a number.

The intake side is different. While the W2 port is big, it was developed for small displacement engines (especially by today’s displacement sizes) it won’t support a valve as big as most guys want to use. The bigger the valve, the bigger the cross section to feed it. I’ve run 2.100 intake valves in the W2 and W5 because they will fit. But never again unless I’m porting for maximum cross section, which on a W2 is rectangle and that’s a massive amount of grinding. And that sucks buttermilk. And the W5 is intentionally small, but at least it’s not cast iron.


If you are going to use a 45* seat, I’d use a 2.08 valve and blend it off under the bottom cut. If it’s a early casting, I had a 45* cutter that I only used on low port angle, shallow valve angle ports (18* or less) with 4 angles that always out powered everything else. Today or tomorrow I have to go by the shop and I’ll get the cutter number and post it in case anyone cares.

If you are up for using a 50* seat on the intake, I’d stay with a 2.055 valve. The 50* is so far ahead of the 45 stuff it’s really not even a thought for me to do a 50 on anything I can. The shape of the 50 is so much better than the 45 it’s not even in the same league as the 50. For years everyone wrote about shape, shape shape and not size, and yet many of them are still using a 45, which doesn’t have the shape of a 50. And shape is what it’s all about.

If you are going to stick with a 45, I’d still consider the 2.055 because as big as the W2 port is, it’s hard to feed a valve much bigger than that on a stock W2 port. That’s why you see the port break over at .550-.600 lift. The port can support all that valve area. Bowl to seat approach is another reason for break over, but you live with that.

As displacement/RPM goes up, cross section needs to get bigger. Then it’s a real bugger to get enough port to feed the RPM. And then you run out of intake manifold.

A fully ported W2 with a 2.100 valve and a tunnel ram struggled to make power at 8500 on 340 inches. More cam would move the power curve up, but the car was slower, because it lost in the gear change.

Just my random thoughts.
 
And I forgot to mention...no nail head valves. Don’t use them. They look good on a flow bench but lose power. Every time.
 
Lots of info to digest there...probably stick to the 45° seat, simply because I have goodson multiangle cutters allready, although I do have a sioux stone setup as well, and I like to touch the seats with a stone after the cutters anyway.
 
Lots of info to digest there...probably stick to the 45° seat, simply because I have goodson multiangle cutters allready, although I do have a sioux stone setup as well, and I like to touch the seats with a stone after the cutters anyway.

Yeah, if you have the tooling already you might as well use it.

Not sure what cutters you’re have, but you might be able to use a 1.550 or 1.580 exhaust valve and your 45. You’ll only know if you verify that.

When TF developed their head, they cut the exhaust valve size down to 1.580 and they didn’t do it to save money on valves. I can’t emphasize how bad a big exhaust valve is for a good exhaust port. The port on OE heads sucks so bad a 2 inch exhaust valve probably wouldn’t kill it. Ok, I embellished that a bit, but that’s what it is.

The bummer is not having a test head. I’m betting even with a 45* seat the 2.055 valve won’t break over as fast or as much as a 2.08 valve will.

I’m not pathological about break over, but I like to eliminate as much or all of it if I can.
 
Thank you Doctor Rose.

And tip on who’s valve or parameters of the valve to be used in a racing application?

I myself have that tunnel ram I wish to use in a couple of years time in retirement. FWIW, the next comment may change a thing or two, so if you could cover two birds with one stone.....

I really don’t have a wish to spin it rpm wise to high. I’d also like to run it on a stroker rather than a 340 CID.
In your opinion, how would you approach both angles of a big and small engine set up?

Im in a very similar boat as the OP @replicarracer43 who I hope doesn’t mind me jumping in on his thread to much considering my future path I want to walk is being done by himself now.
:steering::thumbsup:
 
I will add my opinion to that, and bear in mind I'm no expert... but like yellow rose pointed out the W2 was designed around a 340 cubic inch build, and on the stroker engines, I think you would have a hard time feeding one with anything LESS than a W2 unless you want to build a tractor engine. Kinda like its almost impossible to over carburete a small block mopar.
 
And then there is THIS. These are later heads, but with cast in pedestals "econo" and clearly these rockers ain't gonna work. I'm supposing this rocker is for the offset stands and shafts, didn't realize the rockers were different length. Looks like a trip to my Bridgeport mill is in my future, as well as a hunt for the offset drilled rocker shafts.
20200526_133441.jpg
 
Perhaps much taller valve is in order?

LMAO! WOW!

but like yellow rose pointed out the W2 was designed around a 340 cubic inch build, and on the stroker engines, I think you would have a hard time feeding one with anything LESS than a W2 ....
I can see why and where the short fall comes in. While it is still a capable head, the extreme cubic inch possibility can make the head seem a bit small. Earlier when I said big for a engine size, that can be normally Seen as a 408/416 or something. At this size, I don’t see a really high rpm engine or at least I should say, a properly well feed engine at a high rpm.

I’ve learned a lot here at the forum from other W2 owners and other places even though there different brand engines, (Richard Holdner for one) but the actual experience of being there eludes me for now. Looking forward to your build and living vicariously through the thread.

LMAO!
 
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Thank you Doctor Rose.

And tip on who’s valve or parameters of the valve to be used in a racing application?

I myself have that tunnel ram I wish to use in a couple of years time in retirement. FWIW, the next comment may change a thing or two, so if you could cover two birds with one stone.....

I really don’t have a wish to spin it rpm wise to high. I’d also like to run it on a stroker rather than a 340 CID.
In your opinion, how would you approach both angles of a big and small engine set up?

Im in a very similar boat as the OP @replicarracer43 who I hope doesn’t mind me jumping in on his thread to much considering my future path I want to walk is being done by himself now.
:steering::thumbsup:


Ok. I just wanted to think about this for a bit before replying.

Number ONE thing here is a tunnel ram is always the best intake IF you don’t mind the hood issues. Always. I don’t care if it’s a street only car. If you have a TR and you don’t mind the hole in the hood, use it. That helps everywhere.

Sooooo...with that you should use a custom cam from a grinder who “gets” you and what you expect. I’ll say this again...Jim Dowell at Racer Brown is the master at using his lobes (wherever he gets them) to make the best of what you have. I think of Jim the same way I think of Mike at B3. He is that good. A bit hard to get ahold of, because he grinds the cams, answers the phone, pays the bills, sweeps the floors...he does it all. But worth it to me because he “gets” me. That’s more important than any name on a box. The cam is the second most important part of a TR setup, right behind carb tuning.

If you don’t want to spin the guts out of it, that’s fine. It’s less load on the induction system. I’m going to do a 3.79 stroke with W2 heads (maybe a TR...maybe) and shift it at 7800. That’s going to take a roller lobe for sure.

Lift never hurts a W2 head. Ever. The only exception is the wrong valve job causing turbulence issues. If the flow curve bends over it doesn’t matter. Get as much lift as the valve gear will tolerate. I’m going to shoot for a .725 net lift lobe, but Jim may tell me I’m wacky. But that’s what I think I need for what I’m doing.

I haven’t thought about port cross section verse displacement very hard yet. I do know a 340 at 8500 needs all the cross section you can give it. Unless someone else is writing the checks, I won’t do that again. My best guess today is for a 3.79 stroke at 7000 or a bit more will need the port squared at the top, and can be left round at the bottom, with at least a 2.055 valve and a 50* seat to keep the bowl and throat reasonable. It may need an odd size like 2.065 or 2.070 and a 50* seat, or a 45 and a 2.08. Im not sure about a 2.08 and a seat steeper than 45 because you’ll need a pretty big cross section to feed it. So that means if you start running bigger valves and need cross section to feed it, then you not only square off the top of the port, you do the bottom too.

That’s sucky because those heads are harder than the hinges of hell and grinding them sucks. And you just can’t square the opening. You have to square the port all the way back. Thats a ton of miserable grinding work. And, you have to grind the manifold to match. If you are using a Pro Dominator and you square the top of the port and do the intake correctly, you might as well weld it before you start grinding. Because you’ll find the thin spot pretty quick.

On the MP TR...I’ve never had one for the W2 but I did for the W5. It took some grinding, but that’s just because like the head, the ports in the intake are small to begin with.

So the big things are cam selection, carb tuning and valve sizing verses cross section. When you get all that on the same page the HP/CID will be impressive.

Lead69 and I (and several other really smart, cool guys) did a TR, cam and carbs for a friend, and it turned out very impressive. It’s a 3.75 stroke SBC (so it’s a .040 over 400) and for that we used 2 HP Holley 750’s and a Racer Brown 279/279 248/248 .648/.648 grind with on a 108 installed at 105. That thing is pretty impressive. He can shift a 7000 and it’s making power. Hopefully he can get it on the wheel dyno sometime and see what it really does.
 
And then there is THIS. These are later heads, but with cast in pedestals "econo" and clearly these rockers ain't gonna work. I'm supposing this rocker is for the offset stands and shafts, didn't realize the rockers were different length. Looks like a trip to my Bridgeport mill is in my future, as well as a hunt for the offset drilled rocker shafts.View attachment 1715535499

I think FABO member @Rocket has some very nice offset shafts for sale.

You may want to contact Mike at B3 and see how much actual correction you need. You may be able to just offset grind the shafts you have and use his kit to correct the geometry.

That’s probably cheaper than shafts, blocks and milling the stands off.
 
I'm lucky in these heads that they are virgin, although they do have multi angles roughed in allready
20200526_133456.jpg
 
I'm lucky in these heads that they are virgin, although they do have multi angles roughed in allreadyView attachment 1715535687


Ok, I like that valve job. You can blend the throat right into the bottom cut. Unless you need a bigger valve, I’d run that.

Those are also later castings because the back side of the bowl is more perpendicular to the valve stem than the earlier stuff.
 
Ok, I like that valve job. You can blend the throat right into the bottom cut. Unless you need a bigger valve, I’d run that.

Those are also later castings because the back side of the bowl is more perpendicular to the valve stem than the earlier stuff.
I think they are cut for a 2.02 valve, I will have to measure. Should be plenty of bowl area to shape if I cut for a 2.05 valve....will need to put guides or guide liners in first, to get away from the 3/8 valve stem
 
Not sure I saw it mentioned earlier or not but the econo’s With built in pedestals came in short valve
and long valve versions. Which length valve are you trying? I have a long valve econo head here that uses the tall ~5.28” valve length and can measure the height of the pedestal if it helps.
 
Not sure I saw it mentioned earlier or not but the econo’s With built in pedestals came in short valve
and long valve versions. Which length valve are you trying? I have a long valve econo head here that uses the tall ~5.28” valve length and can measure the height of the pedestal if it helps.
That would be helpful, that was a 5.250ish valve stuck in there, but I think they are the shorter length version, the rocker is at quite a angle with the valve on the seat. Another good reason to mill that stand off and use blocks I'd say...
 
Here are some measurements with the two pedestals Between the intake ports.

The first measurement and pictures two and three are pictures of the pedestal with the oil hole leading from the deck. Picture three shows how I took the measurements. The second measurement In picture four is from the pedestal between the other pair of intake ports.

This should give you a good idea if you have the tall valve , like my pictures, or short valve econo heads.

5C2469A7-66A8-4FF8-B666-8DFFC538A81E.jpeg
36F7D021-C375-4497-B005-D8C0B4006484.jpeg
8B3409CC-8480-43B8-8768-041C8ED7AB70.jpeg
C06FE723-360F-4F56-BBE7-73B077BDDA0D.jpeg
 
on those heads I'd
use smaller than 1.6 exhaust except you say VJ is already roughed in
do the conversion guides easy choice is 11/32 but perhaps you can score some 5/16 or MM valves
but use something popular like SBC or LS
I would first talk with B3
I'd port first for a 2.2 or not too much bigger valve and get that working right- depending on bore size
then go bigger next time
It's hard to put metal back
or find someone with lots of experience with W2
we had several here in SO Cal but have not heard of any flow bench work in like forever
try and get the flow as high as possible at each lift or as eariy as possible

I have a head (somewere is its mate) that am going to check out putting the hold down with something like a double end stud
put the shaft behind the stud (instead of elongating the hold down hole notch the intake side of the shaft)
perhaps another hold down on the intake rail side
then fit some high ratio long arm- essentially backset trunion rockers
pushrod as to stay in about the same place coming through the head
this solves the problem of the adjuster getting too close to the rocker body
although I think you might get 1.7 with cup type adjusters but most I've seen is 1.65
problem is small for today base circle
those that can run large cam bore have it easier
Did you see krooser's pic of chevy and mopar cam (or BBC) big difference
And I can remember makeing SBC even smaller made spark jump like cam was spaghetti
AMC ,LS & Ford have it easier
 
I thought about a higher ratio rocker, if I have to mill the stands off, it opens up lots of possibilities, but I'd still be stuck with the offset intake rocker. And I thought about the 5/16 or 8mm valves, but there is just a ton more availability in the 11/32 size. Sometimes I overthink this stuff and make it more complicated than needed, lol
 
I would start out by researching the part number and seeing if they are the ones probe to cracking. Mine were so I stuck with the stock 2.02 valve and mildly ported them to slightly over 300 cfm. If you are good at porting, taking them to someone good at porting, and are going to invest in a good set of rockers I would go with a 2.08 valve and try to get 330 cfm out of them. W2 heads have a
beautiful short side so it would be fun reaching for the moon on a set.
 
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