DionR
Well-Known Member
Here is a clip from a '15-18 Charger service manual. Looks like regular relays to me.
Finally get to pretend I am one of the cool kids - Holley kit swap
- Thread starter DionR
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Here is a clip from a '15-18 Charger service manual. Looks like regular relays to me.
Needswork
Well-Known Member
Thanks for posting the wiring diagram. It turns out you can spend hours and hours reading about pwm fan control. A Web search on 'oem pwm controllers' will reveal all kinds of discussions on various message boards. In most cases the actual fan motor is just a regular motor. A separate pwm controller is used between the ecm and the fan(s). The controller can provide "soft starts" to avoid huge inrush currents and variable speed depending on cooling requirements. All controlled by a pwm signal sent to the controller from the ecm. Supposedly the Holley Terminator X has a pwm output that can be used for such purposes. I've decided I'm going to keep it simple for now.
Going to dumby fit the motor and measure up the space see if i can get a decent after market rad to fit with a twin fan or a big single. Main thing is with the fans they need to be enclosed hard to the rad with no gaps around the tops or sides so they maximise the pulling of air through the rad. The twins on my 355 stroker in my ute pull that hard you can feel the hot air blowing out getting in and out. Some after market ally rads already have shrouds on them and mounting plates for fans. I would prefer this as looks neater but pretty pricey items.
Pretty sure you can run the fans with the Terminator, hopefully can make them run on as well when switched off etc. Or run the dakota unit, i have a super simple fan controler in my ute, has a plastic joiner that goes into top rad pipe with a probe mounted in it. You can then adjust the temp the fans come on at under the hood with a little adjustment knob. Super simple and pretty idiot proof
Guessing the holley mounting kit is also working against us when it comes to rad and fans.
Pretty sure you can run the fans with the Terminator, hopefully can make them run on as well when switched off etc. Or run the dakota unit, i have a super simple fan controler in my ute, has a plastic joiner that goes into top rad pipe with a probe mounted in it. You can then adjust the temp the fans come on at under the hood with a little adjustment knob. Super simple and pretty idiot proof
Guessing the holley mounting kit is also working against us when it comes to rad and fans.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Finally starting to gain some traction. 3D printing parts for a final fit up and going to do the trans support before I order steel but feels like I hit a milestone.
Dude, that's awesome! I've been looking at CAD stuff here lately. I do alot of equipment design at work but in a very old school way... I can go through some graph paper haha. I'd love to know more about CAD...
DionR
Well-Known Member
I went to school for drafting and spent a bunch of years doing that. I started in 2D but worked in 3D stuff when it was just becoming used more. For the last 15+ years I have been working with a 3D modelling software called Tekla that is shape driven and has little to no 2D in it.
That said, almost all of my layout work for my own projects have been in 2D. Multiple views, no parametrics, pretty old school stuff. Not really different than a drawing on paper, but easier to copy and modify.
But this project is different as I am going to market it. Not that I think it will sell, but it's something I have want to do for awhile and this feels like a good place to start. But I can't use the company supplied software to do that as technically using their tool means they own the produce I designed in it. So this project has been all in Fusion 360 while prior ones were just lofted in Fusion so I could do a 3D print. It's been a little bit of a struggle, but I am learning and making it work.
Nice thing is, Fusion 360 is free for non-commercial use. My understanding is that as long as I don't get too big, I am ok to use it even if I am selling stuff. And the free version has some limitations, but I have yet to really hit any of those limits minus being able to test the part for strength.
I even traced your hoop to see if I thought the 8HP would fit under this crossmember if I ever want to swap out the T56 for one. Way taller than needed for an 8HP, but based on where yours landed (front to back), I don't think I would have to change my tunnel if I went down that road.
DionR
Well-Known Member
If I had been really smart, I would have bought or found a model of the T56 and inserted it so I could see it in my layout.
Tremec T56 Gearbox — Bremar Automotion 3D Scan Store
Tremec T56 Gearbox — Bremar Automotion 3D Scan Store
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
Huh, that's pretty neat. Problem is you'd need the engine and the rest of your car to be able to position it effectively as well, though I guess you could probably just use the mounting pad on it and references to your hoop to get it close.
Your hoop looks pretty similar to what I ended up with as well. I didn't go quite as form fitting as I had limited ability to bend stuff beyond a vise and hammer though.
The other option is to be silly like me and buy a 3D scanner yourself, lol. I had all sorts of ideas when I bought it, but in practice it doesn't work out quite as nicely as I would have liked. I think it would actually be great for something like the transmission with a lot of detail on it, or larger stuff like an engine bay. The big problem is then turning those scans into something useful for CAD. Millions of tiny points stitched together into surfaces makes for huge files, plus they don't necessarily have an easy origin point to pick from or measurements, so they are really most useful for stuff like clearance checks or making block models off of. It's also just not super mobile to use since it wants a pretty beefy computer to run it.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't use it to set mounting locations, only to get an idea of clearances and for visualization. I am sure it is just a mesh with a bunch of faces and doesn't have anything to set as mounting holes. I could be wrong, but that is what you get from a 3D scan unless you bring it in and make holes and surfaces and such.
I found this one as well, much cheaper but I'm even less sure of any dimensional accuracies compared to the $40 one. At least it has the right shifter housing as an option.
FORD COYOTE 5.0 - GEARBOX TREMEC T56
It's more for a small scale model or something, but cheap enough that it would be cool to add it to my model just to see how it all sits together.
My goal is to market this as a DIY solution. I don't plan to stock them, nor am I going to weld them together. If someone wanted to buy one, I would ship it direct from an online laser cutting place and they weld it up themselves. There are some tubes they will have to cut as well, but I don't have that locked down as yet. Either way, it should be half the price of the other one that is perpetually out of stock.
This one does require the outer plate to be bent to fit, but it's 16 gauge and the radius are fairly generous so time will tell. The inner/bottom plate will be bent by the online place I am going to source mine from.
Not going to say mine is better, and not sure if it would work for someone that isn't doing a G3 swap with Holley mounts either. I guess if someone wanted to do some measuring, maybe I could revise my design to fit that situation. But for now this is kind of a narrow focus part.
I though about buying a 3D scanner...until I look at costs. Creality has a nice one I have heard, for $4K. They have one for $800 also, but not willing to spend that much right now. And like you said, there is a bunch of work afterwards to make it something you can use for anything beyond visualization. And I doubt my laptop would do the work.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
Send those files to send cut send and let them get after it. You will have a cross member in 6 days.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Already have them in my cart and they can bend up the inner plate so bonus there. But I decided to push pause and 3D print a test crossmember. I've already made a couple of changes and have one more I expect to need to do.
Might have done the single inner plate in multiple plates like I am doing for the 3D prints, but getting it bent instead is so much nicer.
I uploaded the outer plate as is and I think their software didn't work it right due to the generous radius I used. At least my overall length calculation came out different. So I did up a flat plate with the notches it needs and will use that.
And I think I am going to wait until I have the lower mount laid out and order them all at once, too.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I bought an Einstar on a black friday sale as it was the one I've had my eyes on the longest and had some of the best reviews at the time. There have been some others that have come out since that are similar to it, but most of what I've seen lately still prefers the Einstar because of the software. I think mine was something like $800-1000. It's fun to play with, but really doesn't get enough use to justify the cost. I kind of regret the purchase as it also caused me to spend more money to upgrade some of my computer parts to better use it, but oh well, it's another tool in the toolbox. I need to break it out again and try some of the stuff I've been thinking about just to get some use out of it.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I looked at that. In my case, the transmission would be an addition 1"+ forward and (I think) be fine. I would add that I am only guessing at the location of the hoop left/right and up/down. So no guarantees it would fit.
DionR
Well-Known Member
You need to ship the scanner up here so I can scan the T56. Then I will ship it back with the file and you can turn it into a usable model.
I love the stuff people are doing with scanners and such. I am sure it is the future, just not in mine at this point in time. Almost certainly someday though.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I've got to try to scan my interior and rear deck in the next few days while my car has the garage. Had a bit of an incident with an icy bridge and a guardrail in the Viper, so it's in the shop for a while. Figured I'd make the best of a bad situation and let the Dart enjoy having a roof over its head in the meantime. Goal would be to scan the interior to see about designing a center console. Would be a pretty simple design of flat panels, but would at least let me get some dimensions recorded. The rear deck I was going to scan because I was thinking about trying to make a lip spoiler like what is on the modern Challengers. I half debated trying to just use a Challenger one and see what it looked like (my dad has a 2016, which is what gave me the idea), but at several hundred dollars for one it's not something I wanted to spend money on just to experiment with. My printer is way too small to print a full one, but my dad gave me the clever idea of just printing sections to glue together and then fiberglassing over it to make it seamless. Would still take a while as my printer is only 9" wide build volume, but would have to model something up first to see how long it would take and how much plastic it would use up.
DionR
Well-Known Member
That would be cool. Probably going to need a whole bunch of those shinny dot stickers for the interior.
DionR
Well-Known Member
I am going to call the upper crossmember done and move on to the lower crossmember.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
Well, I was inspired to action this weekend and drug my computer out into the garage to grab some scans. Will have to clean them up and trim them to only have the data I need, but they turned out okay. The back end was hard to scan as it's pretty smooth and doesn't have enough defining features between stuff, but I think I got enough to make do. See what you guys make me do when you show me all the progress you make on your own projects? Lol
DionR
Well-Known Member
Impressive. Doesn’t look like you had to use those little shinny stickers, I assumed you would need those. Does the scan have a scale to it, or do you have to scale it to match reality?
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
It depends on what you are scanning. The back end would have been much easier with stickers as otherwise the system uses unique features for tracking. The rear panels are larger than the scan area I can get, so it can't tell where on the panel you are until it has something "special" to look at like the Dodge emblem in the middle. So I could go left to right until the taillight was just out of view, then I had to go down to the bumper to pick up the reverse light, then over to the license plate, then up to the emblem, then back to the left to try to get the rear of the deck. That's one reason I couldn't get much on the top surface of the trunk, just nothing to track there. The dots would have made that way easier, but I was curious what I could get without them.
The interior was a fair deal easier as this scanner seems to love carpet. Lots more going on in the cabin to track, though it did have a hard time getting up to the dash and some parts of it. I had to do something similar to the back where I went over to the kick panel, then up and back across the dash. Though I managed to accidentally delete that scan (and it only took me 4-5 times to get it scanned right to begin with...).
It scans to scale, so shouldn't have to adjust anything. The main issue with importing it into any kind of CAD software is that it doesn't necessarily orient it in any specific way. I've seen some scanners where you scan a reference origin first to define your axes, but this one just kind of scans and goes. It also makes it tough to measure points, though there is some inspection software out there that is designed for dealing with scanned data. Basically what a quality department would use to verify that parts are made to print. The one I've seen before on some YouTube videos was GOM Inspect, which apparently got bought by Zeiss so it's now Zeiss Inspect or something like that. They had a free version last time I used it, but it's been a while and it was a moderately steep learning curve. It was nice because it would average points into different shapes if you were trying to measure something. So if you had something like a hole or two flat planes that you wanted to know the diameter between it would average points and create a plane to measure from. I think it also let you modify scans to orient them to planes that you measured, so it was useful for that as well.
racerjoe
Well-Known Member
This is super cool. I can see the value in this for companies that build high end cars or components.
I don't know if you've seen them but dentists have the coolest scanners. I had to go last week for some dental stuff. I needed to get some impressions done because I'm at the time in my life that I need some partials. The dentist had this scanner that he drug around over my teeth and along my gums. Made perfect, in color scans of my teeth. I was dreading it because I thought it was going to be the old school way.. here, bite down on these gooey plates! He scanned upper and then lower.. had me bite down and then touched on each side off my teeth and the 2 images on the laptop just snapped together. Was pretty cool.
Map63Vette
Well-Known Member
I know exactly what you're talking about. I had that done as well because I got some aligners a while ago. I actually looked those up just for the fun of it to see how much they ran and the one that my dentist used at least was something like $5000 if I remember right. I believe that system actually uses photogrammetry, which is essentially taking a whole bunch of pictures and stitching them together. You can actually do the same thing with a regular camera and some free software out there (there are some tutorials on YouTube). I tried it once, but either didn't have enough pictures or didn't have a good enough setup or something. I'm guessing the dentist equipment is probably specifically built for that environment though, so likely calibrated to work on teeth best. I bet it would work well with small stuff though, like little switches and knobs and stuff that the larger scanners don't always place nice with.
Other systems use some variety of "structured light", which is just a fancy way of saying they project a pattern onto the object and measure the deformation in the pattern to work out the shape. Picture taking a projector and projecting something like stripes or a checkerboard onto something. You know it's supposed to be straight lines, but as it hits objects and different heights it's going to skew those to not be straight. You can do math to work backwards and figure out what caused the change in shape. What light they use exactly will vary from device to device. Some are visible like you can see like a regular project, some are infrared, some are laser, etc. You can kind of make your own system as well by just using one of those laser levels that projects a line and a camera with a turntable. Software is really what makes or breaks a system from what I've seen. I'm sure camera quality and what kind of light and pattern you use makes a difference as well, but in the end it's all about converting that data to a useful model.
DionR
Well-Known Member
Finally ordered my steel.
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