I wasn't planning on it. I went over the cam card specs with Jeff at TF and he assured me that the seat pressure fit Hughes' specs.
5.9 stroker build
- Thread starter RBConvert
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mopowers
Well-Known Member
See, that's where I'm confused. Didn't he say the seat pressure for those springs is 150? Sounds like that 150 is at 1.900" installed height, not 1.950". Not sure it'd make any difference though, but you may want to double check.
I agree, there's some ambiguity to the spring specs and to what Jeff was saying. If I take a conservative view and say the seat pressure is 138# @ 1.950", is that a reason for concern? It's 12# or 8% lighter than Hughes' cam card specs.
The last "big" order from Summit arrived: Cometic head gaskets, Fel Pro gasket set, Remflex exhaust gaskets, M72 oil pump, freeze plug set, Edelbrock 800 cfm AVS2 carb, high torque starter.
I like the look of brass freeze plugs. The set comes with the internal oil passage block-offs.
Summit branded starter. I was going to reuse the existing starter because it works just fine, but upon removal we found the cast snout had cracked and broken off and was still wedged in the mounting hole. No idea how long its been like that.
Ordered but still in transit are the B3 Racing rockers and spacers, and a neutral balance damper from Hughes.
I like the look of brass freeze plugs. The set comes with the internal oil passage block-offs.
Summit branded starter. I was going to reuse the existing starter because it works just fine, but upon removal we found the cast snout had cracked and broken off and was still wedged in the mounting hole. No idea how long its been like that.
Ordered but still in transit are the B3 Racing rockers and spacers, and a neutral balance damper from Hughes.
Greg and I picked up our blocks from the machinist yesterday. We're building our engines side-by-side in his shop so there's going to be some overlap in our stories. His build thread is here:
The 360 build that has more turns than Willow Springs
My block is a 5.9L magnum while Greg's is a 360 LA hyd roller. Very similar, biggest difference is his block oils the rocker arms through the head while the magnum oils through the pushrods.
Orange block is the magnum. It's an original 360/380 hp crate motor that's never been opened up. The factory did a nice paint job; hot tanking barely made a mark.
The 360 build that has more turns than Willow Springs
My block is a 5.9L magnum while Greg's is a 360 LA hyd roller. Very similar, biggest difference is his block oils the rocker arms through the head while the magnum oils through the pushrods.
Orange block is the magnum. It's an original 360/380 hp crate motor that's never been opened up. The factory did a nice paint job; hot tanking barely made a mark.
While we're building our engines at the same time, our paths to final completion are going in opposite directions. Greg's is more of a budget build, reusing a lot of the existing parts to create a robust 400± hp motor. The magnum will wind up producing 500± hp and about all I'm reusing is the block, oil pan, front cover, and headers.
Rolling the block off the truck, the first step was to install the galley plugs. It's been mentioned numerous times, but it worth repeating: don't forget the internal plug adjacent to the distributor bore. It can only be accessed through the external core plug hole, so the sequencing is critical.
This is a pic looking through the back of the engine at the installed plug. We used Gasgacinch on all the plug threads and core plugs.
The core plug kit includes two types of cam plugs. We went with the concave/convex style that @krazykuda outlined in his 360 build series. The plug drops into the bore concave side facing outward; there is very little interference fit. Once you're sure the plug bottoms out on the flange, pound the middle of the plug with a ball peen hammer to flatten it out and expand the plug. Once its in, I took a long socket extension and gently pressed on the back of the plug (from inside the engine) to make sure it was seated firmly.
Here's the back of the block with the galley plugs and cam plug installed:
Rolling the block off the truck, the first step was to install the galley plugs. It's been mentioned numerous times, but it worth repeating: don't forget the internal plug adjacent to the distributor bore. It can only be accessed through the external core plug hole, so the sequencing is critical.
This is a pic looking through the back of the engine at the installed plug. We used Gasgacinch on all the plug threads and core plugs.
The core plug kit includes two types of cam plugs. We went with the concave/convex style that @krazykuda outlined in his 360 build series. The plug drops into the bore concave side facing outward; there is very little interference fit. Once you're sure the plug bottoms out on the flange, pound the middle of the plug with a ball peen hammer to flatten it out and expand the plug. Once its in, I took a long socket extension and gently pressed on the back of the plug (from inside the engine) to make sure it was seated firmly.
Here's the back of the block with the galley plugs and cam plug installed:
I didn't take any pictures, but I verified that the cam bearings were installed correctly by running a small diameter welding rod through the cam bearing oiling holes. All good.
I've always been impressed with YT videos and magazine articles that showed the deburring of engine blocks. Now that I have my own build, I borrowed Greg's deburring tool and went to town on the oil return passages in the lifter gallery.
Before:
After:
The grinding creates a small mountain of dust, a lot of which falls onto the cam bearings. I blew out the block with compressed air, but I'll also be power washing the block before assembly and then I'll chase the oiling holes again.
I've always been impressed with YT videos and magazine articles that showed the deburring of engine blocks. Now that I have my own build, I borrowed Greg's deburring tool and went to town on the oil return passages in the lifter gallery.
Before:
After:
The grinding creates a small mountain of dust, a lot of which falls onto the cam bearings. I blew out the block with compressed air, but I'll also be power washing the block before assembly and then I'll chase the oiling holes again.
An interesting observation was the amount of grinding on the last two lifter bores and each bank of the block. The passenger side was really worked over. This was done in the factory. There must have been pushrod interference just on the rear-most two lifter bores. @Kern Dog's block also had relief work done on the same bores, although not as severe.
Passenger side:
Driver's side. A much better job radiusing the relief:
The pushrods showed no scuffing so it worked.
Passenger side:
Driver's side. A much better job radiusing the relief:
The pushrods showed no scuffing so it worked.
Most of yesterday was spent measuring and installing the main bearings. The day before was spent pressure washing and running brushes through the oil passages.
The crank was installed dry and the mains were plasigaged and all fell within 0.015" and 0.020", well within spec. The thrust measured 0.065", which is on the high side of acceptable but still within specs. Out came the crank and main bearings were lubed before setting the crank back in. I'm a fan of JustMoparJoe on YT as he videos a lot of engine builds. For lubing up all of the bearings, I'm using his concoction of 50% Lucas assembly lube and 50% non-detergent 30W.
I've been pre-occupied almost to the point of obsessing over correctly installing the rear main seal because I've read countless articles and watched a handful of videos on the consequences of improper installation. To prepare for yesterday's install, I watched a couple of JPJ's videos, read and re-read KrazyKuda's article #5 on installing the crank, and read and re-read the section on rear main seal installation in "How To Rebuild the Small Block Mopar". I triangulated all three sources to identify the front vs rear of the seal and installed it exactly as I interpreted the information. Greg walks over to look at my progress and immediately notes that the seal is in backwards. DAMN! What a soul-crushing moment it is to be absolutely sure you've performed a task exactly as it should have been done, only to learn you got it wrong, with dire consequences if it had gone unnoticed. Thankfully the crank hadn't been set yet and the main caps weren't torqued down so it was a quick fix. But still...
The crank was installed dry and the mains were plasigaged and all fell within 0.015" and 0.020", well within spec. The thrust measured 0.065", which is on the high side of acceptable but still within specs. Out came the crank and main bearings were lubed before setting the crank back in. I'm a fan of JustMoparJoe on YT as he videos a lot of engine builds. For lubing up all of the bearings, I'm using his concoction of 50% Lucas assembly lube and 50% non-detergent 30W.
I've been pre-occupied almost to the point of obsessing over correctly installing the rear main seal because I've read countless articles and watched a handful of videos on the consequences of improper installation. To prepare for yesterday's install, I watched a couple of JPJ's videos, read and re-read KrazyKuda's article #5 on installing the crank, and read and re-read the section on rear main seal installation in "How To Rebuild the Small Block Mopar". I triangulated all three sources to identify the front vs rear of the seal and installed it exactly as I interpreted the information. Greg walks over to look at my progress and immediately notes that the seal is in backwards. DAMN! What a soul-crushing moment it is to be absolutely sure you've performed a task exactly as it should have been done, only to learn you got it wrong, with dire consequences if it had gone unnoticed. Thankfully the crank hadn't been set yet and the main caps weren't torqued down so it was a quick fix. But still...
Greg and I have been hanging around together now for several years and we've come to find that we're on the same page with just about every topic: cars, music, politics, and life's generalities. In fact, I'm building my engine at this specific time only because he was starting to build his 360 and we both agreed it would be fun to build the engines side-by-side. Like Greg, my motor will be painted Go ManGo, a late-model Dodge high impact color. The tangy orange will nicely offset the white engine bay. But its at that point that our paths diverge and Greg's looking back, kind of shaking his head.
I've decided to paint the entire engine Go ManGo: block, heads, intake, front cover, oil pan. Everything. Yes, the gorgeous TF works of art, and the Edelbrock AirGap manifold are going orange. Most engines, including the 440 in my Coronet have aluminum intakes and aluminum heads sitting proudly as-cast on top of a beautifully painted block. This time I'm going understated.
It's not going to be painted all assembled like they did at the factory. Bolt on's will be painted separately, or in the case of the oil pan and front cover, loosely attached to the block without a gasket. I want the gasket edges to show. And the pieces will be bolted on using ARP 12 pt black oxide screws and bolts.
The headers will be powder coated a cast iron gray and the valve covers will be black finned. I was going to paint the damper, but the timing marks are silk-screened so it's staying natural. I think the effect will be stunning; I can't wait to see it come together.
I've decided to paint the entire engine Go ManGo: block, heads, intake, front cover, oil pan. Everything. Yes, the gorgeous TF works of art, and the Edelbrock AirGap manifold are going orange. Most engines, including the 440 in my Coronet have aluminum intakes and aluminum heads sitting proudly as-cast on top of a beautifully painted block. This time I'm going understated.
It's not going to be painted all assembled like they did at the factory. Bolt on's will be painted separately, or in the case of the oil pan and front cover, loosely attached to the block without a gasket. I want the gasket edges to show. And the pieces will be bolted on using ARP 12 pt black oxide screws and bolts.
The headers will be powder coated a cast iron gray and the valve covers will be black finned. I was going to paint the damper, but the timing marks are silk-screened so it's staying natural. I think the effect will be stunning; I can't wait to see it come together.
On matters such as these, a friend can share their opposing opinion but should not expect others to agree or change their original plan.
I can see the appeal of an understated engine appearance.
The mistakes I had with fish eyes in the paint of my own engines were discovered during the first steps of painting so hopefully they will not return for THIS build. My 360 is going into a ragged out looking 67 Dart....
...I could have put a junkyard 318 in the car and it would look right at home.
Rich's car though...
It is a much nicer car so the bar is a LOT higher. The engine we pulled out ran great and actually looked decent. This mill will add 48 cubes, well over a point of compression, add lots of cam timing and weigh maybe 30-35 lbs less. It isn't in the plan to dyno test the engine before installation but it sure would be cool to know what the flywheel HP numbers are. A junkyard fresh engine would look terribly out of place in this car. Even if it takes a couple efforts to get the paint looking right, that is what we will do.
I can see the appeal of an understated engine appearance.
The mistakes I had with fish eyes in the paint of my own engines were discovered during the first steps of painting so hopefully they will not return for THIS build. My 360 is going into a ragged out looking 67 Dart....
...I could have put a junkyard 318 in the car and it would look right at home.
Rich's car though...
It is a much nicer car so the bar is a LOT higher. The engine we pulled out ran great and actually looked decent. This mill will add 48 cubes, well over a point of compression, add lots of cam timing and weigh maybe 30-35 lbs less. It isn't in the plan to dyno test the engine before installation but it sure would be cool to know what the flywheel HP numbers are. A junkyard fresh engine would look terribly out of place in this car. Even if it takes a couple efforts to get the paint looking right, that is what we will do.
Have you seen this thread?
Balancer recommendation for cast stroker
I thought you bought a neutral balance dampener. I thought your crank was cast too.
Balancer recommendation for cast stroker
I thought you bought a neutral balance dampener. I thought your crank was cast too.
It's been a while since my last posting, but I've been steadily progressing on the build. I last left off with the crankshaft installed, then it was on to the pistons. The pistons are forget Icon, .030" over. The piston rings are file fit, with a .004" factor; meaning an installed gap of .004 for every inch of bore. In my case, 4.030" x .004" = .016" minimum gap. Better to be a little on the bigger gap size than too small so I gapped all 16 rings to a strong .016" / tight .018" (don't have a .017" feeler gauge).
Next was installing the spiro locks. For those of you like me who have never installed these before, it's a process that takes practice. Icon gives install instructions and I watched a couple of YT videos that made it look easy, but in reality it requires patience. Greg had some spare time, so he installed one side while I came back and slipped in the con rod pin and installed the second lock. It still took a long time. Tech tip: double and triple check that you're orienting the con rod correctly on the pin so that the chamfer is against the journal cheek. I missed one that Greg caught and we had to remove one of the spiro locks to pull the pin and reverse the rod.
the Icon install instructions include a diagram with specific orientation of the rings on the piston. Basically, they want 180° between the top and second ring, and a 90° gap between the upper and lower oil control rings. (The oil ring is a 3 piece design).
Next was installing the spiro locks. For those of you like me who have never installed these before, it's a process that takes practice. Icon gives install instructions and I watched a couple of YT videos that made it look easy, but in reality it requires patience. Greg had some spare time, so he installed one side while I came back and slipped in the con rod pin and installed the second lock. It still took a long time. Tech tip: double and triple check that you're orienting the con rod correctly on the pin so that the chamfer is against the journal cheek. I missed one that Greg caught and we had to remove one of the spiro locks to pull the pin and reverse the rod.
the Icon install instructions include a diagram with specific orientation of the rings on the piston. Basically, they want 180° between the top and second ring, and a 90° gap between the upper and lower oil control rings. (The oil ring is a 3 piece design).
Some people are capable of zipping right through an engine build with ease. Others (Like me of course) will take more time since we don't do this all the time. It can be easy to beat oneself up for a rate of progress that is slower than we expected but hey...as long as it gets done right and makes power, you'll forget about the time it took to build.
There is a sentiment that some agree with.....That the thrill of a cheap part is immediately gone when it breaks long before you expect. Taking that another way, an experience that seems frustrating and taxing will probably fade away fast once the build is done and the project was a success.
This is not a stock rebuild with stamped steel rocker arms, iron heads, a single row timing chain and cast iron rings. Every component is an upgrade so extra care needs to be taken to maximize the potential of the engine.
There is a sentiment that some agree with.....That the thrill of a cheap part is immediately gone when it breaks long before you expect. Taking that another way, an experience that seems frustrating and taxing will probably fade away fast once the build is done and the project was a success.
This is not a stock rebuild with stamped steel rocker arms, iron heads, a single row timing chain and cast iron rings. Every component is an upgrade so extra care needs to be taken to maximize the potential of the engine.
A good example is the windage tray above. The Magnum didn't originally come with one but I wanted to add it so I picked this up at Mancini Racing. The description clearly states its not stroker clearanced (I missed it when I ordered it). The tray cleared the counter weights but impinged on a few rod bolts. A little persuasion got the height we needed, but in turn it slightly increased the radius so the outer edge rested on the inside of the oil pan rail. The windage tray was ringed with a U channel edge. With a hammer and anvil we flattened the channel back into the tray. I also had to lengthen the slot in the tray where the oil pickup tube ran across. Total time was about 1/2 hour.
mopowers
Well-Known Member
I always wondered about windage trays for small blocks. They almost look like they would do more harm than good by capturing the oil from the top side surrounding the rotating assembly and preventing the oil from returning to the pan. But that's probably me over-analyzing. Looking good!!
There has been debate as to the size of the drainage slots at the bottom. Some advise to widen the slots to facilitate faster runoff/drainage.
Even the big blocks can use some help on drainage...
Even the big blocks can use some help on drainage...
Yes.
Edit: .0065"
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I'm fast forwarding a little because today I finished dialing in the valvetrain, and Greg and I wound up having more questions than answers surrounding 'preload' and its effect on the valvetrain. But first I need to digress a couple of steps.
The TF heads are torqued down and the front cover, water pump, and damper are installed as well. Next step was mocking up the rocker arms and measuring for pushrods. I referenced three sources: Rick Ehrenberg during his 360 LA build, and conversations with Dave Hughes and Mike Beachel at B3 Racing. The consensus was that I add my preload to the length of the checker pushrod that was measured at zero lash and zero preload (lifter plunger was resting up against the retainer). BTW, all heights and measurements that I refer to are with the lifter(s) on the base of the cam lobe.
B3 Racing supplied the PRW rocker set and Mike's geometry correcting spacers. Per Mike's instructions, I was to bottom out the adjuster to the bottom of the rocker arm and then rotate it one full turn (One turn = 0.050") to gain some adjustment room.
There were some discrepancies in pushrod length between intake and exhaust, but for brevity sake, I settled on 7.250" + 0.060" preload, equaling 7.310. Smith Bros. had 7.300" 3/8 pushrods on the shelf so I ordered 18 (two spares) and they arrived two days later. Amazing.
So now I'm ready to talk about preload. The Hughes cam card recommends 0.090 - 0.095" preload (Magnums cam .090" stock) with their hyd roller cam, which seemed high to me, although I admit I have no experience telling me why I should feel that way. When I questioned both Dave Hughes and Mike Beachel, both said not to make a big deal about preload; too many people get hung up on a number. They said just pick a number and be consistent. Then why do cam cards give recommended preload numbers? I understand you want some preload to push the plunger off the retainer to quiet down the valvetrain. What would be the difference if I had picked .090" or .030" instead of .060"?
These are pics of how the engine looked at day's end.
The TF heads are torqued down and the front cover, water pump, and damper are installed as well. Next step was mocking up the rocker arms and measuring for pushrods. I referenced three sources: Rick Ehrenberg during his 360 LA build, and conversations with Dave Hughes and Mike Beachel at B3 Racing. The consensus was that I add my preload to the length of the checker pushrod that was measured at zero lash and zero preload (lifter plunger was resting up against the retainer). BTW, all heights and measurements that I refer to are with the lifter(s) on the base of the cam lobe.
B3 Racing supplied the PRW rocker set and Mike's geometry correcting spacers. Per Mike's instructions, I was to bottom out the adjuster to the bottom of the rocker arm and then rotate it one full turn (One turn = 0.050") to gain some adjustment room.
There were some discrepancies in pushrod length between intake and exhaust, but for brevity sake, I settled on 7.250" + 0.060" preload, equaling 7.310. Smith Bros. had 7.300" 3/8 pushrods on the shelf so I ordered 18 (two spares) and they arrived two days later. Amazing.
So now I'm ready to talk about preload. The Hughes cam card recommends 0.090 - 0.095" preload (Magnums cam .090" stock) with their hyd roller cam, which seemed high to me, although I admit I have no experience telling me why I should feel that way. When I questioned both Dave Hughes and Mike Beachel, both said not to make a big deal about preload; too many people get hung up on a number. They said just pick a number and be consistent. Then why do cam cards give recommended preload numbers? I understand you want some preload to push the plunger off the retainer to quiet down the valvetrain. What would be the difference if I had picked .090" or .030" instead of .060"?
These are pics of how the engine looked at day's end.
I love the contrast of the aluminum and that orange paint. It is mechanical art and a beautiful sight to see.
The whole Preload issue is a bit of a pickadilly for me too. What is correct? What is too much?
The 360 I bought last year, tore down in January and am building alongside the OP's 408 has Hughes 1.6 ratio rocker gear:
Look at the threads showing above the lock nuts on the adjusters. They are close if not exact.
When I tore down the engine, they were all over the place. NO cylinder had identical looking thread counts and I might know why. I adjusted mine yesterday and I had the intake off. Now...There is certainly a proper way to adjust these but I did it my own way, a method that makes sense to me. Feel free to call me out and tell me I did it wrong because I had no printed instructions.
I tightened the adjuster until the plunger in the lifter started to move away from the spring retainer at the top, then I went 7/8 of a turn on the adjuster and locked them down. One full turn equals .050". As I secured the lock nuts, the adjuster turned a slight amount more so I am just shy of .050" preload. The guy that had this engine before me had stamped steel rockers on the engine when he first built it then added the Hughes rocker gear later. He did not pull the intake when installing the new pushrods and rocker gear. What I noticed is that if you are relying on tension in the pushrod to determine a point of zero lash, you have gone too far. As I was doing the adjustment, I could spin the pushrod even after I adjusted to the final number where the lifter plunger was already .050 below the retainer ring wire. I suspect that the prior owner couldn't see that he was already depressing the plunger and that he had every lifter set to a different preload setting.
I don't have much experience with Mopar engines that have hydraulic cams and adjustable valvetrain. My red Charger has a solid cam and determining valve lash is simple. Feeler gauges between the roller tip and the valve stem and that is it.
I had several Chevys before jumping back into Mopars. They were simple...I'd use a cut down valve cover and start the engine. Back off the adjuster nut until the rocker clattered, tighten it until the clatter was gone and then tighten it another 1/2 or 3/4 turn and then move to the next rocker arm.
Here is an article written by Jeff Smith, a former editor of Hot Rod magazine:
The drawbacks of too much or too little preload:
The whole Preload issue is a bit of a pickadilly for me too. What is correct? What is too much?
The 360 I bought last year, tore down in January and am building alongside the OP's 408 has Hughes 1.6 ratio rocker gear:
Look at the threads showing above the lock nuts on the adjusters. They are close if not exact.
When I tore down the engine, they were all over the place. NO cylinder had identical looking thread counts and I might know why. I adjusted mine yesterday and I had the intake off. Now...There is certainly a proper way to adjust these but I did it my own way, a method that makes sense to me. Feel free to call me out and tell me I did it wrong because I had no printed instructions.
I tightened the adjuster until the plunger in the lifter started to move away from the spring retainer at the top, then I went 7/8 of a turn on the adjuster and locked them down. One full turn equals .050". As I secured the lock nuts, the adjuster turned a slight amount more so I am just shy of .050" preload. The guy that had this engine before me had stamped steel rockers on the engine when he first built it then added the Hughes rocker gear later. He did not pull the intake when installing the new pushrods and rocker gear. What I noticed is that if you are relying on tension in the pushrod to determine a point of zero lash, you have gone too far. As I was doing the adjustment, I could spin the pushrod even after I adjusted to the final number where the lifter plunger was already .050 below the retainer ring wire. I suspect that the prior owner couldn't see that he was already depressing the plunger and that he had every lifter set to a different preload setting.
I don't have much experience with Mopar engines that have hydraulic cams and adjustable valvetrain. My red Charger has a solid cam and determining valve lash is simple. Feeler gauges between the roller tip and the valve stem and that is it.
I had several Chevys before jumping back into Mopars. They were simple...I'd use a cut down valve cover and start the engine. Back off the adjuster nut until the rocker clattered, tighten it until the clatter was gone and then tighten it another 1/2 or 3/4 turn and then move to the next rocker arm.
Here is an article written by Jeff Smith, a former editor of Hot Rod magazine:
The drawbacks of too much or too little preload:
Icetech
Well-Known Member
I actually ended up at 2 turns (.082) preload... at 1.5 turns or less i would get random noise... i did use used OEM lifters though..
BTW.. the adjusters are 24 threads per inch.. 1/24=.041 not .050.. not that .009 matters.. but..
that article might be talking bout stud mounted rockers which might be .050.. dunno.
P.S. i have actually changed preload on my motor 5-6 times.. from 1/2 turn upto 2 full... and ended staying at 2.
P.P.S. i believe the stock magnum/LA roller preload is like .125... and the lifters and do upto .160 (i think.. been awhile since i hunted for the nfo)
I would think pushrod length is a factor. If 0.60" was added to the pushrod length when measuring the checker rods but preload was set for only 0.030" when assembling the engine, the pushrods would be .030" too long. I'm not knowledgeable enough to know what the implications are.
Greg and I attempted to determine one revolution height using rudimentary techniques, and we got close. Talking to Mike, he said the PRW adjusters are 20 threads/inch.
Icetech
Well-Known Member
Ahh ok.. i thought they are all 24.. i believe the harland/mancini are 24.. so yeah 20 would be .050.. nevermind
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