5.9 stroker build

[RBConvert]

I actually ended up at 2 turns (.082) preload... at 1.5 turns or less i would get random noise... i did use used OEM lifters though..


P.S. i have actually changed preload on my motor 5-6 times.. from 1/2 turn up to 2 full... and ended staying at 2.

P.P.S. i believe the stock magnum/LA roller preload is like .125... and the lifters and do upto .160 (i think.. been awhile since i hunted for the nfo)

This is my first build using adjustable rockers, so this is foreign to me. I'm used to the OEM application where the shaft hold downs are torqued to spec and you're done.
In your case, you've adjusted preload from as low as .0205 up to your current .082. This backs up the narrative that preload isn't an exact science. I'm also taking this to mean that pushrod length has a certain fudge factor built in as well. On my build, I had added .060 to the pushrod length but only had .050 adjuster length. When installing the pushrods I backed the adjuster to bottom out in the rocker arm and the pushrod plunger was slightly depressed; in theory it would have been .010 but I have no way to measure. I added one full turn to the adjuster which in theory would equal .060 preload.
Creating preload with the adjuster bottomed out is a little disconcerting to me. I can never 'zero out' my preload unless I go with shorter pushrods. I guess my takeaway for future builds is that during trial measurements, the rocker arm adjuster needs to be extended down at least as far as the anticipated preload amount, probably a touch more to give more adjustability during the final assembly. Is that how everyone else measures their pushrod length?

 

[Icetech]

This is my first build using adjustable rockers, so this is foreign to me. I'm used to the OEM application where the shaft hold downs are torqued to spec and you're done.
In your case, you've adjusted preload from as low as .0205 up to your current .082. This backs up the narrative that preload isn't an exact science. I'm also taking this to mean that pushrod length has a certain fudge factor built in as well. On my build, I had added .060 to the pushrod length but only had .050 adjuster length. When installing the pushrods I backed the adjuster to bottom out in the rocker arm and the pushrod plunger was slightly depressed; in theory it would have been .010 but I have no way to measure. I added one full turn to the adjuster which in theory would equal .060 preload.
Creating preload with the adjuster bottomed out is a little disconcerting to me. I can never 'zero out' my preload unless I go with shorter pushrods. I guess my takeaway for future builds is that during trial measurements, the rocker arm adjuster needs to be extended down at least as far as the anticipated preload amount, probably a touch more to give more adjustability during the final assembly. Is that how everyone else measures their pushrod length?

If you are using like the PRW/mopar adjustable type you should have 2-4 threads of the adjuster showing below the rocker when you measure the pushrod (just go 3..) and different companies will tell you how to measure.. (always go smith brothers.. they are fast, they are one of the best.. and not that expensive) for mine.. you measure the entire length of the measuring pushrod then subtract X amount for the cup (i think it was like .150) cause they actually want the number from the bottom of the pushrod to the inside of the cup, not the outer edge. If you did end to end you would be slightly long..

 

[Icetech]

Just went and looked it up... this is from smith bros webpage

"To get a more accurate length measurement, place a ball bearing the proper size inside the cup, measure the overall length over the ball bearing, and subtract the full diameter of the bearing to get the same result"

basically what i said but the proper way...

 

[RBConvert]

If you are using like the PRW/mopar adjustable type you should have 2-4 threads of the adjuster showing below the rocker when you measure the pushrod (just go 3..) and different companies will tell you how to measure..

That's about where I was. Mike had recommended one full turn.

(always go smith brothers.. they are fast, they are one of the best.. and not that expensive) for mine..

I used Smith Bros. They have an almost infinite inventory of off the shelf pushrods that will ship same-day if you order early enough in the morning.

you measure the entire length of the measuring pushrod then subtract X amount for the cup (i think it was like .150) cause they actually want the number from the bottom of the pushrod to the inside of the cup, not the outer edge. If you did end to end you would be slightly long..

Are your pushrods ball/cup? Mine are ball/ball.

 

[Icetech]

That's about where I was. Mike had recommended one full turn.

I used Smith Bros. They have an almost infinite inventory of off the shelf pushrods that will ship same-day if you order early enough in the morning.

Are your pushrods ball/cup? Mine are ball/ball.

OHHHH sorry... i just had to zoom in on a pic.. i assumed you were ball/cup yeah.. then end to end.. no biggy....

Did you check your side clearances on the rockers also? i set mine up .012-.015 per a user here that isn't around anymore but knew his ****... it's probably not that critical but better to make sure you aren't too tight before it's an issue

 

[RBConvert]

OHHHH sorry... i just had to zoom in on a pic.. i assumed you were ball/cup yeah.. then end to end.. no biggy....

Did you check your side clearances on the rockers also? i set mine up .012-.015 per a user here that isn't around anymore but knew his ****... it's probably not that critical but better to make sure you aren't too tight before it's an issue

Yes we did. That was another WIP. The PRW instructions were a little vague (to me); they instructed .015-.020 per rocker. Talking again with Mike (I can't say enough good things about him), its .015-.020 per pair of rockers, so I initially had twice as much clearance as needed. Determining the side clearances was more tedious than dialing in preload. Besides the different sized shims, the holes in the shaft hold downs were drilled off-center; it took me a couple of times to realize. I then marked one side on each to stay consistent. I must've had the rocker shafts on and off the head 5 or 6 times before I felt comfortable with the settings.

 

[Icetech]

Yes we did. That was another WIP. The PRW instructions were a little vague (to me); they instructed .015-.020 per rocker. Talking again with Mike (I can't say enough good things about him), its .015-.020 per pair of rockers, so I initially had twice as much clearance as needed. Determining the side clearances was more tedious than dialing in preload. Besides the different sized shims, the holes in the shaft hold downs were drilled off-center; it took me a couple of times to realize. I then marked one side on each to stay consistent. I must've had the rocker shafts on and off the head 5 or 6 times before I felt comfortable with the settings.

Yup.. it was something i was glad i did on the engine stand.. would be 100x worse in the car..

 

[mopowers]

What lifters are you using? Are they stock replacement lifters? OEM? I believe those lifters have a pretty large range of plunger movement. From my experience running more preload can quiet down the valve train a little. At some point though, it probably becomes paralysis by analysis. Sounds like your method was correct. If you want to run more preload, it's as simple as screwing in an adjuster and locking it down.

I'm curious - did you have any clearance issues with the 3/8" pushrods on the trick flow heads?

 

[Icetech]

What lifters are you using? Are they stock replacement lifters? OEM? I believe those lifters have a pretty large range of plunger movement. From my experience running more preload can quiet down the valve train a little. At some point though, it probably becomes paralysis by analysis. Sounds like your method was correct. If you want to run more preload, it as simple as screwing in an adjuster and locking it down.

I'm curious - did you have any clearance issues with the 3/8" pushrods on the trick flow heads?

I went 5/16x.083 on mine per smiths recommendation and they are pretty tight.. i am curious if 3/8 had issues also..

P.S. if i could start over i would have put in solid lifters and skipped the hydraulics (going to switch on the new motor)

 

[RBConvert]

Yup.. it was something i was glad i did on the engine stand.. would be 100x worse in the car..

Agree.
Circling back to one of your previous posts, you said that at 1 1/2 turns, about .0615", you still heard lifter noise. I assume that was from the plunger contacting the retainer. If that's the case, what would cause the lifter plunger to rise that much? Could it be spring pressure, high lobe lift? Was the noise more noticeable at lower or higher rpm's?

 

[RBConvert]

On another note, using Greg's drill we pre-oiled the engine. 75 lbs oil pressure. Yes! And oiling through all 16 pushrods. No leaks. That was a great ending to the day.

 

[Icetech]

Agree.
Circling back to one of your previous posts, you said that at 1 1/2 turns, about .0615", you still heard lifter noise. I assume that was from the plunger contacting the retainer. If that's the case, what would cause the lifter plunger to rise that much? Could it be spring pressure, high lobe lift? Was the noise more noticeable at lower or higher rpm's?

low rpm.. and i don't think it was hitting the retainer or i would have had valves hanging open.. when i posted about it i was told that the OEM type lifters are known to be noisy.. that plus more aggressive cam lobes than the factory uses adds to the problem. I tend to over worry about stuff.. I always have to stress over something

 

[Icetech]

On another note, using Greg's drill we pre-oiled the engine. 75 lbs oil pressure. Yes! And oiling through all 16 pushrods. No leaks. That was a great ending to the day.
View attachment 1716411589

BTW, what oil pump are you using? bronze drive gear? I ran a HV pump and should have went standard.. when i felt the torque it took just to prime the engine i switched from 50w to 5w30.. trying to make that bronze gear live as long as possible.

 

[RBConvert]

low rpm.. and i don't think it was hitting the retainer or i would have had valves hanging open.. when i posted about it i was told that the OEM type lifters are known to be noisy.. that plus more aggressive cam lobes than the factory uses adds to the problem. I tend to over worry about stuff.. I always have to stress over something

I'm the same way. Greg has talked me off the ledge countless times during the build.

 

[Icetech]

I'm the same way. Greg has talked me off the ledge countless times during the build.

haha yeah.. i'm bad with it.. i got a bug in my butt and ripped the front off my motor a couple of days ago.. now i'm paralyzed deciding if i wanna leave the cam where it is or retard it 4 degrees.... which isn't all bad.. i seem to like working on the car more than driving it at this point

 

[RBConvert]

BTW, what oil pump are you using? bronze drive gear? I ran a HV pump and should have went standard.. when i felt the torque it took just to prime the engine i switched from 50w to 5w30.. trying to make that bronze gear live as long as possible.

I read so many conflicting opinions about high volume vs high pressure vs regular oil pumps that I went with the standard M-72 Mellings. The cam was ground on a billet stock so I used a Hughes melonized distributor gear. The break-in oil is Joe Gibbs Driven, straight 30W. I'll switch to 5w30 after break-in.

 

[RBConvert]

haha yeah.. i'm bad with it.. i got a bug in my butt and ripped the front off my motor a couple of days ago.. now i'm paralyzed deciding if i wanna leave the cam where it is or retard it 4 degrees.... which isn't all bad.. i seem to like working on the car more than driving it at this point

Yep, I've stuck myself in neutral a few times, over analyzing something. It's been good to have a second set of eyes on this build.

 

[Icetech]

I read so many conflicting opinions about high volume vs high pressure vs regular oil pumps that I went with the standard M-72 Mellings. The cam was ground on a billet stock so I used a Hughes melonized distributor gear. The break-in oil is Joe Gibbs Driven, straight 30W. I'll switch to 5w30 after break-in.

Ahh..very nice.. when i did mine they were out of melonized.. and a old timer bout 40 years ago explained to me to never get a high pressure pump... a HV pump will get you pressure.. all that volume will make pressure just due to moving that much oil. Not sure how true it is.. but i use HV out of habit and never had a issue.. my current motor is a bottom end with unknown miles (was meant to be a temp engine) and i get 65 at idle also..

 

[RBConvert]

On the subject of oiling, I bought the billet thrust plate kit from FABO member @Mean416. The thrust plate and lower drip rail are nicely machined, and the kit comes with a hollow capscrew for securing the upper left thrust plate corner (passenger's side). The threads go into the lifter valley and oil will accumulate and drip down through the bolt providing additional oiling to the timing chain.
Behind the thrust plate are two small oil galley holes that also created some debate as to their function. The How-To books I've read, and @krazykuda's 360 build series recommend inserting galley plugs. The How-To books go one step further and as an option, recommend drilling a tiny hole in the left-hand galley plug, and then a corresponding larger hole in the thrust plate to allow additional oiling to the timing chain and fuel pump eccentric.
Interestingly, Greg's engine did not have the galley plugs installed. He started a thread on the subject and surprisingly to me, members chimed in that they also have disassembled small blocks without the plugs. I don't remember if my magnum engine had them, and I didn't take any pics of the thrust plate during disassembly. I went ahead and installed them and staked them with a screwdriver and used @Mean416 's kit.
Original timing set prior to disassembly:

Here's the new timing set installed. Peeking out behind the cam sprocket you can see the drilled capscrew securing the thrust plate.

 

[Icetech]

On the subject of oiling, I bought the billet thrust plate kit from FABO member @Mean416. The thrust plate and lower drip rail are nicely machined, and the kit comes with a hollow capscrew for securing the upper left thrust plate corner (passenger's side). The threads go into the lifter valley and oil will accumulate and drip down through the bolt providing additional oiling to the timing chain.
Behind the thrust plate are two small oil galley holes that also created some debate as to their function. The How-To books I've read, and @krazykuda's 360 build series recommend inserting galley plugs. The How-To books go one step further and as an option, recommend drilling a tiny hole in the left-hand galley plug, and then a corresponding larger hole in the thrust plate to allow additional oiling to the timing chain and fuel pump eccentric.
Interestingly, Greg's engine did not have the galley plugs installed. He started a thread on the subject and surprisingly to me, members chimed in that they also have disassembled small blocks without the plugs. I don't remember if my magnum engine had them, and I didn't take any pics of the thrust plate during disassembly. I went ahead and installed them and staked them with a screwdriver and used @Mean416 's kit.
Original timing set prior to disassembly:
View attachment 1716411953
Here's the new timing set installed. Peeking out behind the cam sprocket you can see the drilled capscrew securing the thrust plate.
View attachment 1716411955

I just drilled my left galley last night... Just curious.. did your motor not come with a thrust plate? why a billet one? and in theory the plate should cover the galleys good enough to not need the plugs BUT i just read the other day that a member had massive oil pretty issues til i put cups in there. IF you primed it and have good oil pressure i wouldn't sweat it.

I drilled my galley end due to my chain being much dryer than i wanted when i took it apart, i also don't run a oil slinger though.

 

[Kern Dog]

The oil gallery/galley plug issue was one that confused me a bit too.
Rich used the plugs but drilled them ....and used a thrust plate that had dead ends like so:

I used no plugs and used a similar plate and our oil pressure readings were almost identical using the same drill to prime the engines. I have 10 w 30 oil, he has 30 weight.

 

[Icetech]

The oil gallery/galley plug issue was one that confused me a bit too.
Rich used the plugs but drilled them ....and used a thrust plate that had dead ends like so:

View attachment 1716411986

I used no plugs and used a similar plate and our oil pressure readings were almost identical using the same drill to prime the engines. I have 10 w 30 oil, he has 30 weight.

yeah i don't see how it could be a issue with that plate in the way.. i drilled a 3/8" hole in my plate and a .060 hole in the cup.. so it should spray the chain well..

 

[Newbomb Turk]

BTW, what oil pump are you using? bronze drive gear? I ran a HV pump and should have went standard.. when i felt the torque it took just to prime the engine i switched from 50w to 5w30.. trying to make that bronze gear live as long as possible.

That was good decision. Very few guys need to run a 50 any more.

 

[Icetech]

That was good decision. Very few guys need to run a 50 any more.

yeah just a habit but in my head i could hear that gear screaming "It's $200..... " over and over

 

[RBConvert]

I just drilled my left galley last night... Just curious.. did your motor not come with a thrust plate? why a billet one? and in theory the plate should cover the galleys good enough to not need the plugs BUT i just read the other day that a member had massive oil pretty issues til i put cups in there. IF you primed it and have good oil pressure i wouldn't sweat it.

I drilled my galley end due to my chain being much dryer than i wanted when i took it apart, i also don't run a oil slinger though.

It came with a thrust plate, but none of the bolt holes were drilled. I wanted additional oiling but didn't want to drill the galley plug and thrust plate so I opted for the kit. After I ordered the kit and told Greg about it, he drilled holes in three or four of his thrust plate bolts. He's set for the next couple of builds.