‘67 barracuda heat soak and timing issues

-
Mean416 said:
It's a pain in the *** but keep at it. It may be over tightened. Turn the wrench harder. Make sure you're turning it counter clockwise.

You MUST get the low initial timing sorted out before you do anything else. With timing that low you have tons of fuel being burned in the exhaust and that's gonna make it all super heat soaked and even be dangerous I.e. fire hazards.
Click to expand...
it’s definitely over tightened, i swear hercules was the previous mechanic, every bolt is a knuckle buster.

i agree on the timing and were trying but we live in a HOA unfortunately and have to drive to an empty parking lot, then there’s the risk of stalling and the heat soak where we wouldn’t be able to go anywhere for an hour or more, so we need to be conscious of that too which kind of sucks.
 
Mattax said:
drop the box end on the hex head of the bolt and make sure its a snug fit. If not try some other sizes. We can't be sure what was done or used.
As I recall when I've used the two piece distributor wrenches on the LA engines they worked the best when set up in the shape like a giant C. Then stand on a stool or put a blanket on the fender so you can keep downward pressure while pulling.
Click to expand...
the stool is a good call, i’ll bring one next time we try to eliminate this issue.
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
i’m currently at an 880 rpm idle, isn’t 750 a little slow?
Click to expand...
It depends on what was done to the engine. 750 rpm in neutral is doable when warmed up unless the cam is a bit radical.
First get the initial timing. Then adjust the idle fuel mix. Then check rpm in gear. Then can repeat to fine tune. The least drop in rpm and vacuum when going into gear is the strongest idle. How much effort you put in before calling it good is up to you.

A non-smogged factory perfromance engine would have idled as low as 500-600 rpm even with the load of the A/C running.
1753532350954.png


With the lower initial timing of the early Clean Air Package, idle speed had to be increased to make up for the loss of mechanical efficiency and power.
1753532552071.png
 
There's a number of forum members that might be in your area and willing to help out. Having to drive the car first makes everything hard for sure.
I'm pretty sure @junkyardhero has wrench, will travel or more ideally get your car to where one of these fine folks has a garage or driveway.
 
Mattax said:
It depends on what was done to the engine. 750 rpm in neutral is doable when warmed up unless the cam is a bit radical.
First get the initial timing. Then adjust the idle fuel mix. Then check rpm in gear. Then can repeat to fine tune. The least drop in rpm and vacuum when going into gear is the strongest idle. How much effort you put in before calling it good is up to you.

A non-smogged factory perfromance engine would have idled as low as 500-600 rpm even with the load of the A/C running.
View attachment 1716434755

With the lower initial timing of the early Clean Air Package, idle speed had to be increased to make up for the loss of mechanical efficiency and power.
View attachment 1716434756
Click to expand...
i know there is a mild cam on there but i’m not sure what else, i’ll have to check the records the guy i bought it from sent.

i will try that though, thank you, i wasn’t aware that it was meant to be that low.
 
Mattax said:
There's a number of forum members that might be in your area and willing to help out. Having to drive the car first makes everything hard for sure.
I'm pretty sure @junkyardhero has wrench, will travel or more ideally get your car to where one of these fine folks has a garage or driveway.
Click to expand...
i’m not sure, i mean i can try but the final decision isn’t up to me as well as we’re trying to not break the bank.
 
In my experience, inexperienced mechanics don't have a good feel for how tight a bolt should be. I have a young engineer working for me, great guy, smart and capable. But he doesn't know how tight a bolt should be. I have to go behind him and actually tighten everything.

Of course that can go the other way and there's plenty of newbies who strip fasteners. Weve all been there.

I worked in a transmission shop as a teen. We had a Mercedes in and the boss cautioned me on the install to be very careful about stripping threads on the bell-housing. Guess who stripped a thread on the bell-housing? Guess who was out of a job a few weeks later? LOL
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
recently got a ‘67 barracuda with a 340 as my first car, had problems with overheating and restarting so i heat wrapped the starter and exhaust pipes but it’s still way too hot, timing is 4 at idle and 17 advance, trying to bring it to 15/16 idle and 32 advance but no wrenches reach the bolt, tried a distributor wrench and it wouldn’t catch, looking for help on heat soak management and the timing issue. it’s also blown up 2 coils, a stock 340 one and an o’reilly replacement so currently have a petronix.

View attachment 1716434601

View attachment 1716434602
Click to expand...
Just say NO to the electric fans! If you've already bought them, then sell them and use that money to get a decent shroud. Makes all the difference in the world without the complexity of proper electric fan setup. Ask me how I know. Your timing is off so think you will see a nice change after it is advanced more than it currently is.
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
i just remembered there’s a fuse box between the battery and the fans, if there’s a problem the fuse will blow and not affect the battery apparently is what i was just told.
Click to expand...

Here's how the factory electrical system works:
The car has two power sources, the alternator and the battery. They're connected together with the main feeds at a welded junction. All of those wires are 'hot' when the battery is connected.
1753533302716.png


The battery stores energy at no more than 12.8 Volts. It may read a little higher after charging, but that's just on the surface.
Electrons flow from the battery during start and when the alternator can't provide the power called for.
Magnetism created by the electrons moving to (or from) the battery to the main junction deflects the needle in the ammeter.

When the engine is running, the alternator produces power at roughly 14 Volts. It becomes the source of power. An analogy is having a cistern or water tank feeding a pipe at 12 psi, and then turning on a water pump feeding the same pipe at 14 psi. The 14 psi water line pushes the water in the system, the tank becomes a stand by source.

More modern cars connect the battery and the alternator together in the engine bay. But the arrangement here is typical of older vehicles. When the engine is running and the battery is recharged, the ammeter shows zero. No electrons are moving in or out of the battery. If the alternator circuit fails, then the ammeter will show battery discharge when th eengine is running. If the ammeter shows increasing battery charge with rpm, the alternator's regulation is possibily faulty or the battery is very low. But bottom line it shows battery charging or discharging.
The fusible link is an undersized wire to help protect against battery shorts. Its better than nothing.

Notice the fusebox is split.
One pair of fuses is always hot.
Another pair of fuses is only hot with the key switch in run or accessory
There is one additional fuse slot that would be used for tachometer or A/C or other accessories.
The horn is not fused. The ignition is not fused. Turn signals not fused (flasher unit is sortof a circuit breaker). The headlights have circuit breaker in the switch, as does the wiper motor.

Based on what I can see in the photo, a later Chrysler electronic control unit was wired in and the schematic probably looks something like this.
1753535113484.png
 
Last edited:
Mean416 said:
In my experience, inexperienced mechanics don't have a good feel for how tight a bolt should be. I have a young engineer working for me, great guy, smart and capable. But he doesn't know how tight a bolt should be. I have to go behind him and actually tighten everything.

Of course that can go the other way and there's plenty of newbies who strip fasteners. Weve all been there.

I worked in a transmission shop as a teen. We had a Mercedes in and the boss cautioned me on the install to be very careful about stripping threads on the bell-housing. Guess who stripped a thread on the bell-housing? Guess who was out of a job a few weeks later? LOL
Click to expand...
that’s what i thought at first that i just wasn’t used to it but even my uncle had a hard time. not to say all of them are impossibly tight it’s just that im also not that strong or heavy for that matter so i cant get much power behind it. i haven’t stripped a thread yet but now i dont want to more than ever!
 
Ricks70Duster340 said:
Just say NO to the electric fans! If you've already bought them, then sell them and use that money to get a decent shroud. Makes all the difference in the world without the complexity of proper electric fan setup. Ask me how I know. Your timing is off so think you will see a nice change after it is advanced more than it currently is.
Click to expand...
the decision is not mine nor was it my money but i’m trying to talk him out of it. i can’t wait to get my timing fixed though i totally agree it’ll be so much better!
 
Mattax said:
Here's how the factory electrical system works:
The car has two power sources, the alternator and the battery. They're connected together with the main feeds at a welded junction. All of those wires are 'hot' when the battery is connected.
View attachment 1716434762

The battery stores energy at no more than 12.8 Volts. It may read a little higher after charging, but that's just on the surface.
Electrons flow from the battery during start and when the alternator circuit can't.
Magnetism created by the electrons moving to (or from) the battery to the main junction deflects the needle in the ammeter.

When the engine is running, the alternator produces power at roughly 14 Volts. It becomes the source of power. An analogy is having a cisternor water tank feeding a pipe at 12 psi, and then turning on a water pump feeding the same pipe at 14 psi. The 14 psi water line pushes the water in the system, the tank becomes a stand by source.

More modern cars connect the battery and the alternator together in the engine bay. But the arrangement here is typical of older vehicles. When the engine is running and the battery is recharged, the ammeter shows zero. No electrons are moving in or out of the battery. If the alternator circuit fails, then the ammeter will show battery discharge when th eengine is running. If the ammeter shows increasing battery charge with rpm, the alternator's regulation is possibily faulty or the battery is very low. But bottom line it shows battery charging or discharging.
The fusible link is an undersized wire to help protect against battery shorts. Its better than nothing.

Notice the fusebox is split.
One pair of fuses is always hot.
Another pair of fuses is only hot with the key switch in run or accessory
There is one additional fuse slot that would be used for tachometer or A/C or other accessories.
The horn is not fused. The ignition is not fused. Turn signals not fused (flasher unit is sortof a circuit breaker). The headlights have circuit breaker in the switch, as does the wiper motor.

Based on what I can see in the photo, a later Chrysler electronic control unit was wired in and the schematic probably looks something like this.
View attachment 1716434785
Click to expand...
i see what you mean with the limited power output and danger but if i fully upgrade that system if im forced to go that route, it might be alright? i could get a higher-output model alternator as well as the fan relay and fuse with heavier gauge wiring between the battery and alternator, maybe converting the ammeter into a voltmeter even and make sure the fusible can support it. hopefully i can talk him off of the electric fans but if i cant would that be a safe solution for him to use them but not damage the car?
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
the decision is not mine nor was it my money but i’m trying to talk him out of it. i can’t wait to get my timing fixed though i totally agree it’ll be so much better!
Click to expand...
Guess I misunderstood your first post. You said you got this car as your first but now are saying it is not your decision. Maybe *he* should be talking to us on this forum!
 
I think its possible to power with a relay but becomes more complicated if you want to run the fans with the engine off.
The ammeter can not be directly replaced with a voltmeter. The ammeter used allows the current to run through it. It has no measureable resistance to electical flow. Voltmeters do not allow current to flow through. The voltmeter has to be wired with one point at the location of interest and the other side connected to ground.

This is the sort of rewiring that should be done for EFI.
I don't know what this guy ended up doing but some possible schemes illustrated here, and he does show he did in the his build thread.
www.forabodiesonly.com

Do I really need the wire from the alternator to the bulkhead connector?

This question is for the guys that like wiring and electrical challenges, if those type of people actually exist . I have a 5.9 Magnum running the factory EFI and 46rh transmission in my 70 Dart, and it’s awesome (for me). It all works really well but when I initially did everything a couple...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com

or with the flow though ammeter retained options would include something like this.
www.forabodiesonly.com

72 Swinger not charging battery

Should I splice switched 12V from the relay I installed to the reg and alt blue so it's getting 12.3V? Yes, 10v on a 12v cir is still a LOT of loss due to resistance. You NEED to track that down, cars have melted down on less. 0.2 to 0.5 (and 0.5 is pushing it) is the most drop you should...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com

A lot of work.
 
Last edited:
If you want to compare engine bay or other details
@Cuda_Al always post great examples and solid references.
www.forabodiesonly.com

1967 Upper Radiator (2806066) Hose AC vs Non AC

This is an odd one, the 1967 Parts book only list one number for the 273 and it is 2806066. In 68 the number changed and there were two different numbers, 2863211 & 2863212. Out of curiosity I looked at 66 and it had two different numbers. One might think it was a mistake in 67 or an...
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com

www.forabodiesonly.com

1967 273 Commando Images

Does anyone have any images of a '67 273 Commando mill from back in the day? Publicity shots, or actual shots of the engines when they were new. I'd like to get an accurate account of the engines & engine bay. Thanks.
www.forabodiesonly.com www.forabodiesonly.com
 
I use the wrench pictured. I had to bend it to make it fit. I come at the bolt from the passenger side. If you just use the bottom section and a 3/8” drive extension you can use a ratchet to turn it.
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
isn’t 750 a little slow?
Click to expand...
No, 750 is not too slow for a V8 that has 4 power-pulses per revolution. It may be too slow for a 4-banger that only has half that.
I used to run my 292/292/108 even slower.
The limit of slowness is when your rocker arms gall for lack of oil volume. or the engine stalls, lol. To that end, I installed a High volume pump, and re-engineered my top-end oiling system, to live, down at 500/550, in gear (manual trans), and idling down the road .
Now, if your engine does not like idling that slow, and has good even cylinder pressure; that will be either a tuning issue or possibly tight rings/tight pistons.
If you have an automatic, and YOUR engine won't idle in gear at 650, or will but won't take throttle, then I'd bet money that the transfer slots are closed too far. That's a tuning issue.
 
Anything under 10* initial is going to be a mess

I run stock 340's in the 14-16 range.

That alone should help with the temps as fuel will burn where it is supposed to an not still be burning in the exhaust port, heating things up. Late timing is rough on exh valves too...
 
siberian_squirrel09 said:
it’s definitely over tightened, i swear hercules was the previous mechanic, every bolt is a knuckle buster.

i agree on the timing and were trying but we live in a HOA unfortunately and have to drive to an empty parking lot, then there’s the risk of stalling and the heat soak where we wouldn’t be able to go anywhere for an hour or more, so we need to be conscious of that too which kind of sucks.
Click to expand...


If you have the hood up and a nosy hoa'er comes around tell them a neighbors cat, snake, rare butterfly/animal got trapped and you were trying to get it out safely.

I primed an engine compartment in a tyvex suit in my driveway. HOA person asked.. I was fumigating for black widows! LOL
 
Mattax said:
There's a number of forum members that might be in your area and willing to help out. Having to drive the car first makes everything hard for sure.
I'm pretty sure @junkyardhero has wrench, will travel or more ideally get your car to where one of these fine folks has a garage or driveway.
Click to expand...

JYH Mercenary Wrench Services Ltd. we're not really three raccoons in a trench coat, we just act like it!

all kidding aside, @siberian_squirrel09 hit me up if you're local and need assistance.
 
The AFB carb specs in post #28. The #4309 & 4310 carbs. Both have the same secondary bore & vent size, 1 9/16". Is that a misprint? Venturi is normally smaller than bore size.
 

You must log in or register to reply here.
-
Back
Top Bottom