small block headers

[crackedback]

I would like to see a header dyno test on two separate engine, one a 360 in the 350-400 hp range and another on a 500+ hp stroker. Then I want to see the author of the test install the headers, tell us the ins and outs, then drive 'em on 50 miles of city streets and show before and after pics, lol! I would really like to see what the real life increases on hp and tq really are. Is it 20 hp? 5 hp? Where are the increases in the rpm range, etc?

Hard facts...

416 Batten w2 roller motor
tti w2 1 7/8 race headers ~635hp
Hedman Hustlers 1 7/8 ~665hp
Hedmans were better from 3200-3500 and up. No low end torque loss.

394 ede headed engine with 1 3/4 Hooker SC's pick up ~30hp over the tti step headers.

360 w2, 1 7/8 tti race headers 527... 1 7/8 hookers 563

Three strikes and your out in my book. It isn't an isolated event, even with a different head combination. Same results.

IMHO, tti's are nice headers for a street application, even the race headers, and limited strip use as FIT is the primary issue. If it's a race car with very minor street use... look elsewhere.

Wish I had some header data/comparisons on a 350-450 horse, 340-360, but I don't. I may have another 360/ede head engine coming up but expect it to make in the 500hp range.

 

[GTXperience]

Hard facts...

416 Batten w2 roller motor
tti w2 1 7/8 race headers ~635hp
Hedman Hustlers 1 7/8 ~665hp
Hedmans were better from 3200-3500 and up. No low end torque loss.

394 ede headed engine with 1 3/4 Hooker SC's pick up ~30hp over the tti step headers.

360 w2, 1 7/8 tti race headers 527... 1 7/8 hookers 563

Three strikes and your out in my book. It isn't an isolated event, even with a different head combination. Same results.

IMHO, tti's are nice headers for a street application, even the race headers, and limited strip use as FIT is the primary issue. If it's a race car with very minor street use... look elsewhere.

Wish I had some header data/comparisons on a 350-450 horse, 340-360, but I don't. I may have another 360/ede head engine coming up but expect it to make in the 500hp range.

Rob, are you still trying to make friends with the folks over at TTI? ;-)

BTW: During Fall Fling, I did order a set of headers for the '69 Barracuda (going back to being a heavy street car) and also purchased a set of their W5 flanges to build a set for the 408 in the '35 Plymouth coupe. That one is going to need to breath and breath well (especially when Ryan @ Shady Dell finishes with them).

 

[ramcharger]

Hard facts...

416 Batten w2 roller motor
tti w2 1 7/8 race headers ~635hp
Hedman Hustlers 1 7/8 ~665hp
Hedmans were better from 3200-3500 and up. No low end torque loss.

394 ede headed engine with 1 3/4 Hooker SC's pick up ~30hp over the tti step headers.

360 w2, 1 7/8 tti race headers 527... 1 7/8 hookers 563

Three strikes and your out in my book. It isn't an isolated event, even with a different head combination. Same results.

IMHO, tti's are nice headers for a street application, even the race headers, and limited strip use as FIT is the primary issue. If it's a race car with very minor street use... look elsewhere.

Wish I had some header data/comparisons on a 350-450 horse, 340-360, but I don't. I may have another 360/ede head engine coming up but expect it to make in the 500hp range.

Awesome! Thank you so much for some real world comparisons. I had no idea that there was such a difference. 30-36 hp is nothing to sneeze at and can be felt.

How was the fit of the Hooker SC headers? Are they considered fenderwell headers? Any sheetmetal work necessary? Any suspension limitations like decreased turning radius? Would they install/fit easier with an aftermarket K frame?

 

[crackedback]

Rob, are you still trying to make friends with the folks over at TTI? ;-)

They don't care what anyone tells them about the difference.

Just like the request for a 1 7/8 header for standard port SB... nope, no demand was the answer... ROTFLMAO. Umm OK.

Maybe Sam will send me a christmas card this year. :read2: :cheers:

 

[Optik]

I wonder if the Tight Tubes would fit in an early A Body. Thoughts anybody?

well, i bought a set for my 64 dart because it stated that they did fit early a's in the listing but they don't really. the pass side goes in fine of course but the drivers side will not clear the manual steering box at all. i had to beat a 1" deep dent in the collector to get it to clear, needless to say these are only temporary until i get the money for some fenderwell headers (the car is a beater so i don't care about cutting it).

the real problem however is that the collectors dump out right into the steering linkage and k-member. the down pipes need a sharp 90 out of the collector and we had to squish the pass side into an oval to get it in and out. i should have welded the collector bolts to the flange because getting them into the holes is literally impossible. i have to fish them in with a piece of wire from the bottom. everything involving these headers is a MAJOR ordeal. the only good thing is that if you can manage to get the pipes unbolted from them, they slip out the top pretty easily. also because of the outlet, routing both pipes to one side for clearance under the tranny crossmember becomes a PIA and consequently the car needs to be on a lift in order to have room to rotate the pass. side pipe enough to twist out of where its captured by the linkage and k-member. sucks but they were the only thing i could afford at the time.

my recommendation: avoid the tite-tubes if you have an early a unless you feel like doing a lot of extra work.

-tim

 

[crackedback]

How was the fit of the Hooker SC headers? Are they considered fenderwell headers? Any sheetmetal work necessary? Any suspension limitations like decreased turning radius? Would they install/fit easier with an aftermarket K frame?

No sheetmetal work on the "A" SB Hooker SC's. Headmans require a tube through the inner fender, IIRC. The Hooker fit stinks in relation to the steering gear (no PS) and ground clearance (under steering gear), but the SC don't cook plug wires like the comp headers do (a mild positive... lol) . That's the trade off you have to live with. Dougs and tti fit better, but a lacking in the HP department. Headmans and Hooker make better HP, but, don't fit as well.

 

[ramcharger]

No sheetmetal work on the "A" SB Hooker SC's. Headmans require a tube through the inner fender, IIRC. The Hooker fit stinks in relation to the steering gear (no PS) and ground clearance (under steering gear), but the SC don't cook plug wires like the comp headers do (a mild positive... lol) . That's the trade off you have to live with. Dougs and tti fit better, but a lacking in the HP department. Headmans and Hooker make better HP, but, don't fit as well.

Again, more great information. My Duster will keep it's manual steering anyway, but I didn't want to hack up the inner fenders if I didn't have to. It will have 16" wheels and no lower profile than 50 series tires. Think I'll still have road/header clearance problems with the Hookers?

 

[1969340dart]

If anybody needs a set of the headers that one tube goes through the fenderwell I have a set for sale.They are new but were used to break in my soninlaws engine. They are for 67 up A body. I will take $135.00 plus shipping fot them. I estimate shipping to be roughly $50.00 due to size in the lower 48!

 

[mullinax95]

Here we go with the headers again! :-D

 

[340srule]

No sheetmetal work on the "A" SB Hooker SC's. Headmans require a tube through the inner fender, IIRC. The Hooker fit stinks in relation to the steering gear (no PS) and ground clearance (under steering gear), but the SC don't cook plug wires like the comp headers do (a mild positive... lol) . That's the trade off you have to live with. Dougs and tti fit better, but a lacking in the HP department. Headmans and Hooker make better HP, but, don't fit as well.

Thats why its tti's for me i'll guess i'll just have to live with the 520 + h.p. they help to crank out:-D:-D

 

[crackedback]

Thats why its tti's for me i'll guess i'll just have to live with the 520 + h.p. they help to crank out:-D:-D

And your car isn't a track is it???

Or 540-550 with a better set of headers. :-D

It's all a trade off, fit vs. performance, what you are after/goals, and some people don't like the truth I guess, Sam and staff included.

 

[crackedback]

If anybody needs a set of the headers that one tube goes through the fenderwell I have a set for sale.They are new but were used to break in my soninlaws engine. They are for 67 up A body. I will take $135.00 plus shipping fot them. I estimate shipping to be roughly $50.00 due to size in the lower 48!

1969340Dart

Sent you a PM about the headers.

I have a FedEx account so shipping is an easy deal.

 

[GTXperience]

They don't care what anyone tells them about the difference.

Just like the request for a 1 7/8 header for standard port SB... nope, no demand was the answer... ROTFLMAO. Umm OK.

Maybe Sam will send me a christmas card this year. :read2: :cheers:

I asked about the possibility of making a 1 7/8 stnd port as well (years back). Of course not, there is absolutely no one running a small block on the street that would need such a header. ;-)

I don't know about a Xmas card, but I can imagine what one of their new ads might be (you holding one of other headers with the caption, "Our headers evacuate more hot air than even our biggest critic." ;-)

 

[Thrashard340]

30 HP may not seem like much. It may translate to a tenth of second in the quarter mile. Again, it may not seem like much, but a tenth of a second could be the difference between winning and losing.

 

[crackedback]

I don't know about a Xmas card, but I can imagine what one of their new ads might be (you holding one of other headers with the caption, "Our headers evacuate more hot air than even our biggest critic." ;-)

That's funny...

I wouldn't do the ad, they couldn't afford my rate. :thebirdm: :-D

The face made for radio might be another detractor. 8)

 

[abodyjoe]

The drivers side have never hit anything Joe. The only time that these have hit was when I broke a T-Bar on the passenger side and had to limp home. They touched a couple of times and I did not like the outcome. So much for my nice ceramic coating and no dents or dings.

Jack

i hear ya.. but the pic looks like your car rides on the high side compared to mine. stock height they will hit like mad.

 

[abodyjoe]

And your car isn't a track is it???

Or 540-550 with a better set of headers. :-D

It's all a trade off, fit vs. performance, what you are after/goals, and some people don't like the truth I guess, Sam and staff included.

i hear what your saying...


if i wanted to drive the car the slightest bit on the street then i would go tti and keep the pipes round..

full race then go with the better performing worse fitting headders.

i will have tti's on everything from here on out.

 

[Coyote Jack]

Joe, the pic of the underside was just to show where the headers are in relation to the floor. The car was on jack stands at the time. The pic in my sig line shows my ride height. Maybe a little higher than most, but not much.

Jack

 

[340srule]

And your car isn't a track is it???

Or 540-550 with a better set of headers. :-D

It's all a trade off, fit vs. performance, what you are after/goals, and some people don't like the truth I guess, Sam and staff included.

I can tell ya' first hand dyno's are NOT the tell all..lets see a comparison where it counts at the track,time slips don't lie...

 

[abodyjoe]

Joe, the pic of the underside was just to show where the headers are in relation to the floor. The car was on jack stands at the time. The pic in my sig line shows my ride height. Maybe a little higher than most, but not much.

Jack

i'm talking about your sig pic. it defintley rides higher then stock.. not a big deal. its cool that yours don't hit. but every set of hookers or headmans that hang like that the me or any one of my friends have had in the past ended up with two flat tubes.. thats all i am saying. there are a few exceptions to every rule.

 

[SilverFish]

Yes,those would be tti's..i'll never use another brand , tti's well worth every penny spent,theres a company out there Dougs headers they tried to copy tti's.but theres only one original,yes they are a little pricey but you get what you pay for...quality cost..

I had my early A-body Dougs headers (part #D450) years before TTI had their early A-body headers. If Dougs has since revised their D450's (since they were purchased by Pertronix) then I can't speak to any design similarities to the TTI's product, but TTI was NOT the original at least for early A-body applications.

That said, the TTI's are NOTHING like the Doug's headers, and I couldn't agree more with 340srule in that the TTI's are a fantastic product (I have a friend with a 63 valiant with them and I am jealous of the fit). TTI's are one piece per side, Doug's are three piece per side. Both require front end disassembly for install, but I definitely like the way TTI achieved fitment.:headbang:

But for the record, the TTI's are cheap compared to Doug's (at least when I bought them) >>>> TTI's = $750, Doug's (in 2000) cost $900........

DOH!](*,)

 

[crackedback]

I can tell ya' first hand dyno's are NOT the tell all..lets see a comparison where it counts at the track,time slips don't lie...

You are about the most stubborn person EVER... Blind allegiance to tti. So be it.

One car picked up about .12 the other .08 with a header change. No other changes except jetting to get it right for the increased scavenging.

I know, your car is special and nothing on a dyno ever gets proved out at the track. Maybe because after the dyno, something else in the combo wasn't right or needed a tweak to optimize what was discovered using a tuning tool. That's all a dyno is, like a test light... A TOOL!

If you couldn't get a car with 30 more HP to run better... you're a dope!

 

[Coyote Jack]

No biggy Joe. We all have different experience's with these cars. I know some people have done things and said they worked and for the life of me I couldn't get the same thing to work.

Jack

 

[superdart]

I have some cheap I-Don't-Know-What brand longtube headers, shaped like the Headmans. They were free when I picked up all the parts to my car (engine and everything was out when I bought it).

They fit fine, so I just had them ceramic coated locally. The only time they hit the ground was back when my suspension was shot, and car rode extra low and squishy. I don't even scrape on speed bumps in parking lots.

TTI's are nice..but they aren't cheap for those of us on a budget.

 

[Thrashard340]

You are about the most stubborn person EVER... Blind allegiance to tti. So be it.

One car picked up about .12 the other .08 with a header change. No other changes except jetting to get it right for the increased scavenging.

I know, your car is special and nothing on a dyno ever gets proved out at the track. Maybe because after the dyno, something else in the combo wasn't right or needed a tweak to optimize what was discovered using a tuning tool. That's all a dyno is, like a test light... A TOOL!

If you couldn't get a car with 30 more HP to run better... you're a dope!

Amen to that!