Fastest/ most powerful slant six?

-
AA/G....7/12/15.......Richard Bjerklund...........1/4 Mile ET.....11.961...... Dragster............Samoa, CA.........1,510#
AA/G....7/12/15.......Richard Bjerklund...........1/4 MPH........113.68...... Dragster............Samoa, CA.........1,510#

Not a radial engine, and still doing shakedown runs.

Green Grenade 10.82 at 121
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URLcqPwn3x0"]Brent Laney - "Green Grenade" Dragster - 2012 H.A.M.B. Drags - MoKan Dragway - YouTube[/ame]

Couple people running "hambsters"


C.J. Stokes is building a front motor dragster, with a blown slant six on alky

Probably other dragsters I am not aware of.
 
AA/G....7/12/15.......Richard Bjerklund...........1/4 Mile ET.....11.961...... Dragster............Samoa, CA.........1,510#
AA/G....7/12/15.......Richard Bjerklund...........1/4 MPH........113.68...... Dragster............Samoa, CA.........1,510#

Not a radial engine, and still doing shakedown runs.

Green Grenade 10.82 at 121
Brent Laney - "Green Grenade" Dragster - 2012 H.A.M.B. Drags - MoKan Dragway - YouTube

Couple people running "hambsters"


C.J. Stokes is building a front motor dragster, with a blown slant six on alky

Probably other dragsters I am not aware of.

Thanks for the video, Charrlie!

That is a naturallyl-aspirated engine. That means it is likely, around 300 horsepower. I am anxious to see a 500+ horsepower turbo or supercharged engine in a lightweight chassis.

I wonder what ever happened to the dragster from Marianna, Arkansas, I think I'll give Frank a call.
 
One of the neat things about the Green Grenade is that was done with an aluminum block and one of the hard to find Hilborn injection setups.
130" wheelbase and weights in at 1052 lbs without driver. Chassis is chrome moly built in '61-'63 era and is certified to 7.50
The dragster has ran a 10.51 on an easy tuneup.
We built a shorty 904 for the dragster to keep it all MoPar, but that didn't work because it would wheelie leaving in first gear. I want to keep it period correct for 1965 and older, so no wheelie bar.
Now we are changing to an iron block and a powerglide and looking to run in the high 9's.

Mark
 
Now we are changing to an iron block and a powerglide and looking to run in the high 9's.

Mark

Mark,

Man, it seems like you guys are really on the right track with this liteweight dragster! You told me that your group had interest in building a turbocharged slant six for the future, and I am wondering how that is going. It doesn't seem to be too difficult to build a 500 horsepower slant six if you put a turbo on it, and that would put the dragster into the high sevens at best, or low 8's at worst... and, you could run Super Comp at NHRA races with it! :cheers: The fans would go WILD with you outrunning all those Big Block Chevies with a FED dragster powered by a slant six... LOL! OR, you could put the engine into the green Lancer for some easy nine second passes (Wallace racing calculators shows a 9.96-second e.t. for 2,500 pounds with 500 horsepower) at 135+mph. That's probably pretty close... That Lancer has a powertrain setup that REALLY takes advantage of EVERY horsepower!!! I am totally in awe of its naturally-aspirated performance.. it's really fun to watch, but I think it might be even more fun with the turbo engine you guys are (reportedly) building. Any chance of that happening?

I am making some progress on my own project; it ran 7.70 @ 91.5mph on just 15 pounds of boost, last time out at Centerville (1/8th mile.) That equates to a 12-seconds flat and 112 mph in the quarter, according to the Wallace online calcculator, and the driver (not me,) was off tthe throttle three times on tht run because of handling problems. We're working on that. Plans are for 20 pounds of boost, next time out... Talk's cheap; we'll see...

Thanks for ther update!
 
Thanks for the video, Charrlie!

I wonder what ever happened to the dragster from Marianna, Arkansas, I think I'll give Frank a call.

Well, I called Frank and the slant six powered dragster is currently on "hold" because Frank has been in the process of moving from Marianna, Arkansas, in the southwest part of Arkansas, to Paragould, in the far-northwest part of Arkansas, and it has eaten up a lot of time. Frank has a lot of equipment and parts to move, so he hasn't had time to work on the dragster, but it is definiyely still on the agenda, positive-displacement supercharger and all...

He adds that he will only be about 10 miles from our "Memike," once in his new digs... That should make possible endless bench racing; the first liar doesn't stand a chance....:blob:

Just kidding, guys; I wish I were closer....:happy1:
 
I have been toying with the idea of a turbo/fuel inj slant six for years. I was pleasantly surprised to see some of the hp figures listed here. Has anyone sever seen studies done on intake runner length? I had been thinking of combining the higher flow of a turbo-fed engine with the long runners of the hyper-pak manifold, but perhaps this isn't necessary?
 
Back in the 50's and 60's the Ramchargers went through the calculations and actually made one of the first, if not THE first Tunnelram style manifold. The Ramchargers were Chrysler engineers by day and actually calculated things before turning a wrench. Most of the competition were shade tree mechanics. Intake tuning is based on the distance between the valve seat and the carb flange, or air intake. Google Ramchargers High and Mighty Plymouth.

If you use port injection you can easily make all the runners the same length with a common plenum custom manifold for your slanty. Street car or race car? Longer for better torque down low and shorter for higher rpm HP. Compare the early 60's Chrysler 300's for long runner torque monsters to the Dodge 413 and 426 Ramcharger for the higher rpm version.

IMO, the Ramchargers don't get enough credit for what they accomplished. Most of the Mopar Performance parts and manuals came from their research. "We Were the Ramchargers" is a great book to read for any Mopar guy. They gave the actual intake lengths in the book but I don't have it here now.
 
I have been toying with the idea of a turbo/fuel inj slant six for years. I was pleasantly surprised to see some of the hp figures listed here. Has anyone sever seen studies done on intake runner length? I had been thinking of combining the higher flow of a turbo-fed engine with the long runners of the hyper-pak manifold, but perhaps this isn't necessary?

I am not sure, RE: the runner-length. Here's what I know...

Both Ryan Peterson [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QzUfV8iTpQ"]Turbo Slant Six 10.74 @ 127 mph 7-19-10 - YouTube[/ame]

and Tom Wolfe's [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAxRmoDgsdY"]Turbo charged Slant 6 11.02 @ 120.56 - YouTube[/ame]

engines make a little over 500 horsepower, each. Ryan's engine has a long-runner Hyper Pak manifold while Tom's has a short-runner aftermarket (Offenhauser or, maybe Edelbrock?) 4 bbl manifold.

Otherwise, the engines are pretty similar.

So, it looks like either manifold worls for a high-horsepower slant 6.

But, I have an online friend who is a consultant to the engineering departments of a couple of the BIG auto manufacturers, and he told me to get rid of the long-runner Aussiespeed manifold I use. He makes his living, giving advice like that to manufacturers, so I tend to believe him when he talks.

When I bought my long-runner nanifold a few years ago, Aussiespeed didn't yet offer a short-runner manifold, so, I bought what they had...


I probably need to exchange it for a short one.

My advice; get a used Clifford manifold off ebay for whatever you can make the deal for; I think it'll work well for you...

What car is this being installed in?
 
I have run 10.50s at 128 mph with a 80 shot.11.42 na at 117 mph.Mark

your race video against the mustard duster is in this thread. looks like you beat him too, 11.56 to his 11.64
[ame]https://youtu.be/OSAibrcSXlw?t=223[/ame]
 
I saw pictures of a slant six powered dragster from Australia about 25 years ago. It ran in the 9s if I remember correctly.
 
I am not sure, RE: the runner-length. Here's what I know...

Both Ryan Peterson Turbo Slant Six 10.74 @ 127 mph 7-19-10 - YouTube

and Tom Wolfe's Turbo charged Slant 6 11.02 @ 120.56 - YouTube

engines make a little over 500 horsepower, each. Ryan's engine has a long-runner Hyper Pak manifold while Tom's has a short-runner aftermarket (Offenhauser or, maybe Edelbrock?) 4 bbl manifold.

Otherwise, the engines are pretty similar.

So, it looks like either manifold worls for a high-horsepower slant 6.

But, I have an online friend who is a consultant to the engineering departments of a couple of the BIG auto manufacturers, and he told me to get rid of the long-runner Aussiespeed manifold I use. He makes his living, giving advice like that to manufacturers, so I tend to believe him when he talks.

When I bought my long-runner nanifold a few years ago, Aussiespeed didn't yet offer a short-runner manifold, so, I bought what they had...


I probably need to exchange it for a short one.

My advice; get a used Clifford manifold off ebay for whatever you can make the deal for; I think it'll work well for you...

What car is this being installed in?
I am thinking the long runner, aka hyper pak manifold, was the new technology of the day and a cheaper way of creating high air flow rather than turbo charging. I have articles and photos where they actually used different lengths of radiator hose to find the optimum length for best air flow - 17" was the final answer. With turbocharging or supercharging I am guessing it wouldn't make much difference since it is forced air, other than perhaps reduce turbulence? It will be interesting to see what your friend says. To answer your last question, plans right now or for it to go into my 1948 Plymouth coupe, but that will be a ways in the future, and who knows what I might find in the meantime?
 
Back in the 50's and 60's the Ramchargers went through the calculations and actually made one of the first, if not THE first Tunnelram style manifold. The Ramchargers were Chrysler engineers by day and actually calculated things before turning a wrench. Most of the competition were shade tree mechanics. Intake tuning is based on the distance between the valve seat and the carb flange, or air intake. Google Ramchargers High and Mighty Plymouth.

If you use port injection you can easily make all the runners the same length with a common plenum custom manifold for your slanty. Street car or race car? Longer for better torque down low and shorter for higher rpm HP. Compare the early 60's Chrysler 300's for long runner torque monsters to the Dodge 413 and 426 Ramcharger for the higher rpm version.

IMO, the Ramchargers don't get enough credit for what they accomplished. Most of the Mopar Performance parts and manuals came from their research. "We Were the Ramchargers" is a great book to read for any Mopar guy. They gave the actual intake lengths in the book but I don't have it here now.
Great info, thanks. As I said in my other post, I have information where the tech guys experimented by using different lengths of radiator hose (or something similar) to find the optimum length for the hyper pak manifold in 1960-61. The numbers I have seen for hp are 145 for the 170CI and 197 for the 225 (if memory serves)
 
Great info, thanks. As I said in my other post, I have information where the tech guys experimented by using different lengths of radiator hose (or something similar) to find the optimum length for the hyper pak manifold in 1960-61. The numbers I have seen for hp are 145 for the 170CI and 197 for the 225 (if memory serves)

I was little off on the Ramchargers thing but they were definitely involved. I cut and pasted the following from an interview with Chrysler engineer George Scott on AllPar. The formulas are included:

I worked for a year on the fuel injection program and during that time I was involved with the single cylinder testing I was telling you about. The single cylinder test stand was a 354 ci Chrysler hemi that had all but one piston, rod and valve set removed.

The thinking at the time was it would be easier to work on one cylinder, make changes and get answers before making parts to test on a complete engine. The single cylinder engine had a means of advancing and retarding the camshaft while the engine was running and we could remove the cam lobes individually (exhaust and intake) and try different combinations and indexing on an almost infinite basis.

The intake was one perfectly straight tube that slid over another with close tolerance (like a trombone slide) so it could be lengthened and shortened to find the best possible length for the speed the engine was running. Intake runner tuning is the result of finding the point where the sonic resonance is maximized. When you put your hand in front of your bass stereo speaker you notice there is an air push. The same thing occurs in an engine. You can hear the induction resonance when you step on the gas with the air cleaner removed.

This intake resonance is very pronounced on a single cylinder engine, particularly when recorded and played back at a slower speed, which we used to do. It sounds like Bop, Bop, Bop. By the way, we also took high-speed films of the valve train and watched them in slower motion. All sorts of weird things that would never have been normally visible were discovered and fixed in this manner.

Someone, I think a brilliant engineer by the name of Bob Graham, deduced that if we tuned our intake runner to the point where the resonance was greatest, it would give the maximum push to the air and fuel when the intake valve opened at any given speed. The theory proved correct in the tests on the single cylinder and the results were reduced to a formula that was used from that day forward for ram manifolds on Chrysler engines.

The runner as measured from the valve seat to the plenum (the open area where they normally meet under the carburetor,) can be determined by dividing 84,000 by the length of the runner = the speed the runner will work the best. An example is:
84000 (constant) = 5250 rpm
16 (runner length)

The formula worked with all camshaft designs tested, engine displacements, compression ratios, and bore and stroke combinations of the time.
An exhaust tuning formula was also developed on the single cylinder test stand. An example is:
205000 (constant) = 5256 rpm
39 (length of exhaust runner to collector)
On the exhaust tuning we found that we could flatten out the torque curve by adding length to the collector (the point where all the runners meet.) The collector on an engine with all cylinders operating was usually a tube measuring about 20% smaller than the total of all the exhaust runners.

When this was going on in the mid to late 50s we were all so excited over the findings the department was buzzing about how best to use the information. The first resulting engines to take advantage of this information were the 1960 Chrysler 300F, the Plymouth “Sonaramic Commando,” and the Dodge version with the same engine, the D-500. And, of course, the Hyper-Pak Valiant that we have been discussing lately.
You might be interested in knowing that Tom Hoover calculated to get a 392 hemi to breathe as good as a stock 170 ci Slant Six it would have to have three inch intake and exhaust valves!!

So, we had some good information and data to start the Hyper-Pack development before the funding for it came down. Lots of cam and intake combinations were tried, but the best was the “Squid,” so named for the sea creature that it resembled. With its long runners it was tuned for 5500 rpm. We tuned runners for speed less than the point that the engine produced max power so as to give lots of power when rpm was down coming out of the turns at Daytona. Maximum power was at 6500 rpm. It produced 260 hp with the 276-degree camshaft (Duntov/Porsche design,) 10.5:1 compression pistons and cast iron headers of untuned length. (We were running out of time before race day.)

During the single cylinder testing we found a good valve spring with a surge dampener that was used on the 1958 300D Chrysler, so we used those on the Hyper-Pack. I still remember the part number. It was #1944554. The Hyper-Pack had valve gear stable to 7200 rpm and sounded like a banshee screaming at full song on the dynamometer during power runs. It was policy to leave the dynamometer cell door open during power runs thereby allowing operator quick exit in case of an engine failure of magnitude. At the end of the power runs on the Hyper-Pack where max speeds and noise were reached, there were always crowds of curious onlookers jamming the doorway wondering what the hell was going on in there.
 
I was little off on the Ramchargers thing but they were definitely involved. I cut and pasted the following from an interview with Chrysler engineer George Scott on AllPar. The formulas are included:

I worked for a year on the fuel injection program and during that time I was involved with the single cylinder testing I was telling you about. The single cylinder test stand was a 354 ci Chrysler hemi that had all but one piston, rod and valve set removed.

It's really too bad that the voluminious research conducted "back then," was done on an engine that was the unintended victim of a cylinder head that was so mis-matched (in flow capability) to the 225 motor, that it never had a chance. That head was designed for the 170 and was an appropriate piece for that application with total flow numbers that made the 170 a holy terror. It dominated the compact race at Daytona to the extent that NASCAR cancelled the series.... that's how lopsided the results were, in Chrysler's favor.
NASCAR couldn't abide seeing G.M. being embarrassed like that, again...
But, then they (MOPAR) needed a bigger motor for hauling around B-bodies, which were a lot heavier than the Valiants. So, they stroked it a full inch, which was good for the low-end torque, but strangled the upper-rpm breathing, horribly. All of a sudden the high-revving, powerful-for-its-size, 170 became the asthmatic, strangulated, 225, which struggled to get out of its own way.

No amount of exotic intake/exhaust manifolding could be designed/configured to alleviate the problem that was IN THE HEAD; small bore centers, and small valves were the unavoidable result of the ( front office) dictated smallish bores (3.4") and there was no fixing it without designing a completely new head with either 4 valves per cylinder or some sort of Hemi chamber with canted valves with, maybe, a crossflow design that would allow for significantly better breathing.

So, they did nothing. For many, many years. 'Til the end of production, in fact, for that engine.

The 225 slant six never got a cylinder head with the kind of flow it needed, for true, N/A high-performance. It was stuck with that 170 head.

BUT...

The aluminum infrastructure the 225 had early on, was carried over to the cast iron version, which made for an unusually strong, almost Diesel-like, (construction) engine. Thick main bearing saddles, a forged crank with outsized bearings, a thick deck, and hefty, thick cylinder walls were used, along with NO "thin-wall" castings....

This robust block, head and crank, made for an engine that could withstand stresses that other, lesser engines were incapable of surviving. It made it possible to fully utilize forced induction (or, N2-0,) to the extent that when properly tuned, it was not much of a "trick" to obtain 500 horsepower from this boosted, little six.

Not many people know that, so the number of turbo and supercharged slant sixes that exist, is small, but growing.

It is just a shame that the wealth of research that was done on the naturally-aspirated version of the 225, back in the Ranchargers' day, wasn't spent on turbo versions of this motor, because I think nearly everything available now, was available, then.

No telling what the Ramchargers could have accomplished with their formidable talents, back then... Six-hundred horsepower turbo slant sixes might have been in abundance, when 500 horsepower naturally-aspirated 340s were considered the ultimate...

Maybe that's why it wasn't done... I have been privy to some tersting done on the slant six motor with up to 37 pounds of boost... and, there was no damage.

That's how tough these motors are...

What a shame it's such a well-kept secret...
 
-
Back
Top