Issues with pre - 70's 318 in a 73 Duster

-
banditluda

banditluda

Active Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
26
Reaction score
3
Location
Regina, SK
So I rebuilt a 318 that was out of a 67 fury. I later purchased a parts car that had some extra stuff like power steering and console (my car was originally manual steering and column shift). I'm now in the process of building the car after paint and trying to fit everything from everywhere into it. A couple issues I need options and opinions on are
1) the power steering pump on the parts car is from a post 70's 318. My engine is pre 1970. There were a few changes in the engine at that time. One major one was the water pump. The outlet to the radiator comes out the bottom right (when facing the engine from the front). The 1970 and up version comes out the bottom left. This creates an issue in the mounting location of the power steering pump. The one from the parts car engine will not work on my rebuilt engine cause the brackets put the pump right in the way of the outlet. I have been looking for the correct pump assembly for that year but the few I've found, guys are asking way too much money for. What are some work arounds for this?
2) in connection to the above mentioned problem, the radiator I have accommodates the post 70's style water pump where the inlet is on the same side. Since I built a pre 70's 318, and the outlet is off to the opposing side, can I just run a longer hose? Or do i need to do something more drastic?
Thank you for any input you might have, and sorry for the novel.
 
What I would do is go post 70 everything and get a rad to match. Alternator brackets will need to change as well. Pulley placement will change too.
Good luck!
 
4spdragtop said:
What I would do is go post 70 everything and get a rad to match. Alternator brackets will need to change as well. Pulley placement will change too.
Good luck!
Click to expand...

In order to go "post 70" on everything, how deep would I need to go? I know the water pump is different, and in turn the timing cover would be different as well. How much other stuff would I have to change?
 
Alternator mounting bracket is different as well. Finding pre 70 stuff is harder to find, and your ps setup is post 70. So makes sense to me to go post 70.
banditluda said:
In order to go "post 70" on everything, how deep would I need to go? I know the water pump is different, and in turn the timing cover would be different as well. How much other stuff would I have to change?
Click to expand...
 
4spdragtop said:
Alternator mounting bracket is different as well. Finding pre 70 stuff is harder to find, and your ps setup is post 70. So makes sense to me to go post 70.
Click to expand...


I already have the alternator mounted and all that. The only issues unresolved the radiator and power steering. I purchased this style water pump new and have everything painted to match, so if I can find ways to work with what I've built, I'd prefer that method.

FB_IMG_1540470003848.jpg
 
The basics you need are rad, alternator brackets, timing cover, water pump. I don't remember if some of the water pump/ timing cover bolts are different lengths, but that is easy. You will need matching late model pulleys. I THINK you can use your old balancer, but you WILL have to make a new timing mark. This is easy, use a piston stop. I've posted many times how to use one. Properly done, they are accurate.

You COULD cheat and use a couple of rad hoses coupled together with a sleeve, I did this for awhile until I changed radiators.
 
banditluda said:
I already have the alternator mounted and all that. The only issues unresolved the radiator and power steering. I purchased this style water pump new and have everything painted to match, so if I can find ways to work with what I've built, I'd prefer that method.

View attachment 1715334055
Click to expand...

I was posting and you replied. In that case you might investigate fabbing brackets. I have my original 67 pump somewhere, l sorry it is buried under tons. Literally
 
banditluda said:
In order to go "post 70" on everything, how deep would I need to go? I know the water pump is different, and in turn the timing cover would be different as well. How much other stuff would I have to change?
Click to expand...

You will need to replace the timing chain cover and water pump from the 67 318 with the one that came on the 73...

I would keep the 67 vibration damper on the engine, but the timing mark will be off... Just get a piston stop tool and find TDC and make a mark with paint or white out on the vibration damper to match the timing marks on the 73 timing chain cover...

Then you can use the 73 power steering setup and also use the 73 style alternator mounting brackets...

Now the water pump outlet for the lower radiator hose will match up with the one from the 73 and you can use the 73 lower radiator molded hose and stay away from the flex hoses...

Done deal...
 
Last edited:
67Dart273 said:
I was posting and you replied. In that case you might investigate fabbing brackets. I have my original 67 pump somewhere, l sorry it is buried under tons. Literally
Click to expand...

I was thinking about trying to fab some brackets to make the pump I have work. Is this something that has been done before, I wonder. Also, is it possible to buy bulk length of hose somewhere?
 
banditluda said:
I already have the alternator mounted and all that. The only issues unresolved the radiator and power steering. I purchased this style water pump new and have everything painted to match, so if I can find ways to work with what I've built, I'd prefer that method.

View attachment 1715334055
Click to expand...

I would bite the bullet on the late 60's style cast iron water pump and change it over to the 73 timing chain cover and aluminum water pump, then all the other accessories in the car will bolt up to the 73 configuration...

You could always resell the cast iron water pump here and get some of your money back from it...
 
krazykuda said:
I would bite the bullet on the late 60's style cast iron water pump and change it over to the 73 timing chain cover and aluminum water pump, then all the other accessories in the car will bolt up to the 73 configuration...

You could always resell the cast iron water pump here and get some of your money back from it...
Click to expand...

Will the the timing cover directly swap out?
 
banditluda said:
I was thinking about trying to fab some brackets to make the pump I have work. Is this something that has been done before, I wonder. Also, is it possible to buy bulk length of hose somewhere?
Click to expand...

If you make it an "orphan" by fabbing up parts, you may have trouble in the future getting parts like belts and hoses to fit...
 
banditluda said:
Will the the timing cover directly swap out?
Click to expand...

Yes, the only difference in the timing chain covers from the late 60's to the 70 and later is the timing marks were moved to accommodate the lower radiator hose outlet moving on the water pump... The mounting bolt pattern and gaskets are all the same for both...

The lower radiator hose outlet was moved to the opposite side from the early to late timing covers and the timing marks moved 90° to the opposite side....
 
krazykuda said:
Yes, the only difference in the timing chain covers from the late 60's to the 70 and later is the timing marks were moved to accommodate the lower radiator hose outlet moving on the water pump...

The lower radiator hose outlet was moved to the opposite side from the early to late timing covers and the timing marks moved 90° to the opposite side....
Click to expand...

Thank you. I had thought about swapping this but really wasn't sure if it would work.
 
banditluda said:
Will the the timing cover directly swap out?
Click to expand...

You can get new timing chain covers for the 70 and later configuration from Mancini Racing...

Timing chain covers are offered separately or in packages with the gaskets, bolts, and water pumps included.... Just look here for the option that you prefer:

Timing Covers


aluminum water pump with six blade impeller:

Aluminum Water Pump


aluminum water pump with 8 blade impeller:

Aluminum Water Pump


You can save some money if you need to by buying them used, they are not hard to find the later 70's style timing chain covers and water pumps...

Or use the old ones from your 73 if you still have them...
 
Last edited:
banditluda said:
Thank you. I had thought about swapping this but really wasn't sure if it would work.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if the vibration dampers are interchangeable from 67 to 73, as some of the early 318's had forged cranks in the late 60's and changed to cast cranks in either 69 or 70 - I don't remember which year exactly, but it's not to hard to put the engine to TDC and make your own mark on the 67 vibration damper to line up with the later marks on the 73 and later timing chain cover...

If you don't still have the 70 and later alternator brackets, they are available through mancini racing or bouchillon performance in packages, some even come with the bolts...

Here's links for new alternator brackets, power steering brackets, and pulleys if you don't have the old ones from the 73 to use...

alternator mounting bracket for painted:

Alternator Mounting Kit

5251 alternator brackets - Bouchillon Performance Engineering


Alternator bracket in chrome:

Alternator Mounting Kit, Chrome


Power steering brackets for 70 and later with saganaw pump:

Power Steering Brackets

Bouchillon is much more expensive on this one..

BPE Power Steering Pump Mounting Bracket - Bouchillon Performance Engineering


Crankshaft pulley with p/s:

Crankshaft Pulley with Power Steering w/o AC

BPE Double-Groove Crankshaft Pulley - Bouchillon Performance Engineering


Water pump pulley 70 and later without A/C:

Water Pump Pulley w/o AC

BPE Water Pump Pulley - Bouchillon Performance Engineering
 
banditluda said:
Wow.... thank you so much for all this information. I will sort out what I have and see what I need. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

If you have any questions, just ask me... I'm not always on during the week, but am on most weekends... I have been doing these Mopars for over 30 years and worked on both late 60's and early 70's small blocks and know the differences and interchangeability...

If you make it match the 73 set up, you can use the standard molded radiator hoses and power steering hoses... If you try to mix and match or cobble up your own stuff, then there may be some issues with the proper power steering pressure hose with the steel bent tubing clearing some of the accessories in the engine compartment... Plus this way you can use the correct 73 molded radiator hoses and original 73 radiator... The belt alignment with the pulleys will be proper also... This will keep everything like the factory built it and you can get off the shelf parts easily...


PS: If you are going to get rid of the 60's style pulleys that are on the engine in the picture , I may be interested in them...
 
Last edited:
banditluda said:
Wow.... thank you so much for all this information. I will sort out what I have and see what I need. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

Basically, use all the parts from the 73 set-up and just use the 67 vibration damper and make your own mark to match the new mark location on the 73 timing chain cover... It will save you a bunch of headaches... :BangHead:

If you still have the 73 engine and parts, you already have most of what you need and just get the piston stop tool to make a new TDC mark... :D

You will only need the timing chain cover and water pump gasket kit to change it over and then paint it to match... :steering:
 
Last edited:
krazykuda said:
Here's a piston dead stop tool to use to find TDC if you need one...

You can use it on a completely assembled engine, just remove #1 spark plug...

Summit Racing® Piston Stops SUM-900189
Click to expand...

However, I would recommend removing all the spark plugs when using the piston dead stop tool so you are not fighting the compression in the other cylinders when turning the engine over to find TDC...
 
banditluda said:
Wow.... thank you so much for all this information. I will sort out what I have and see what I need. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

Get the timing chain cover, water pump, alternator mounting brackets, water pump pulley, crank pulley off the 73 engine and use those... Then go with the 70 and later power steering pump brackets...

Now everything will match up with the 73 radiator...
 
banditluda said:
I was thinking about trying to fab some brackets to make the pump I have work. Is this something that has been done before, I wonder. Also, is it possible to buy bulk length of hose somewhere?
Click to expand...
I have all the parts you need if you want to go early. PM me if you’re interested.

Jake
 
krazykuda said:
Basically, use all the parts from the 73 set-up and just use the 67 vibration damper and make your own mark to match the new mark location on the 73 timing chain cover... It will save you a bunch of headaches... :BangHead:

If you still have the 73 engine and parts, you already have most of what you need and just get the piston stop tool to make a new TDC mark... :D

You will only need the timing chain cover and water pump gasket kit to change it over and then paint it to match... :steering:
Click to expand...

banditluda said:
Wow.... thank you so much for all this information. I will sort out what I have and see what I need. Very helpful.
Click to expand...

Here's all that you will need if you have all the parts from the 73 small block to swap over:


Timing chain gasket kit with crank seal ($23)...

Fel-Pro Timing Cover Gaskets SFLTCS45284


Piston stop tool ($10)...

Summit Racing® Piston Stops SUM-900189


It will cost you $33 + paint to get it to match correctly... :D

(How's that for an affordable solution????) :popcorn:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
-

Back
Top