Re: Help in Iowa

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hemisedan

hemisedan

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Hi there, it’s been a long time since I posted here on this A-Bodies Only site. Well here it goes.

I have a 69 Valiant, in my profile picture here, and we need help. This past summer, at the GoodGuys here in Des Moines, my son following me said that there was quite a bit of black smoke from one tailpipe, and the other had some too. Plus, this car is very uncomfortable to drive. It’s a .060 over 360, with J-heads. And it sounds quite radical. It’s not really fun to drive. Also, it was suppose to have a 3:55 gear in it, as it had a 4:11 in it before. I don’t think that the 4:11 ever got taken out. I’d prefer an old 3:23 suregrip instead. And also, I have one those old Rocky Mountain aluminum dashes from the last guy that closed shop in Colorado. Nice piece, and I’d like to use it. I have a set of Dakota analog gauges, that I would also like to use in it. In general, what I’d like is to find someone that can, either help me with this, or just take it on and do some of these things that I’d like done. And needless to say, I’d like NOT to spend a fortune on it, as a 69 Valiant isn’t worth much in the resale market, as I did try to sell this last year. Everyone wanted to, what can I say, steal it? It’s a nice car, and I’d like to make it better, and driveable.

I live in Des Moines, Iowa and any help, or ideas would be greatly appreciated. One of my problems is, that I work 40-50+ hours a week, and lack the tools, and to be honest, the ability to do most of this, by myself. That’s it, let me know.

Bill in Iowa
 
I think I'd change these two things and I'm betting you'd be much happier with it.
  1. Gears - Very easy and fast to swap. I bet you might be happy with a open rear end as well. 4.11 sure grip would be an easy piece to sell.
  2. Cam - Find a cam around .440-.470 lift and 212-224 @ 050
 
318willrun said:
I think I'd change these two things and I'm betting you'd be much happier with it.
  1. Gears - Very easy and fast to swap. I bet you might be happy with a open rear end as well. 4.11 sure grip would be an easy piece to sell.
  2. Cam - Find a cam around .440-.470 lift and 212-224 @ 050
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318willrun said:
I think I'd change these two things and I'm betting you'd be much happier with it.
  1. Gears - Very easy and fast to swap. I bet you might be happy with a open rear end as well. 4.11 sure grip would be an easy piece to sell.
  2. Cam - Find a cam around .440-.470 lift and 212-224 @ 050
Click to expand...
Sounds pretty good. I’m thinking that going thru the motor, a cam replacement, and take a look at the compression. I was told that these were 10.5 to 1. Another question mark. There’s also some question as to the displacement too. It has a lot of torque.
 
Black smoke is excessively rich. You have a carb/choke/fuel pressure problem would be my guess.
 
"Hire" someone to install 323 gears and a good running small block. They supply gears and engine and you give them your gears and engine. A trade so to speak.
 
toolmanmike said:
Black smoke is excessively rich. You have a carb/choke/fuel pressure problem would be my guess.
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Thanks for that. When we got it first running, it really was bad, but then it got better after we put in a ignition change, and smaller AFB type Edelbrock carburetor. Also, ditched the leaking headers and put 340 hp manifolds on it. Still awfully loud though.
 
Sounds like you need to get the rich running issue fixed first. A 3.23 gear won't make the black smoke go away. Have you tested the fuel pressure? You may need a regulator. Edelbrock's like 5# or less. Holley's no more than 7# as a guideline.
 
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Sounds like you want a reliable driver for you and the young lad? Nothing too hp crazy? Post(like you did) what your goals and your skills are. Members here will be able to help guide you BUT if your skills are limited you could get frustrated. It's hard to interpret/translate everything thru the net.
You could have someone(a member) in the area drop by for an afternoon to help assess/diagnose the problem(s)? Offer up a meal and a beer, and make a friend? Then from that point you could assess whether an engine swap us what you want. Black smoke could also be valve seals?
Just trying to offer up options.
Good luck
hemisedan said:
That is exactly what I would like to do.
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AJ/FormS said:
What do you think makes it so. Is she a manual trans car?




Are you aware of how drastic a change from 4.11 to 3.23 is? Your engine will lose ~20% of it's torquey personality.
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I can deal with that as I will be adding power with the engine rebuild. Seriously, it is almost not streetable in the condition that is is now. That’s why it sat almost all summer. I took it to two rod runs, and that was it. Maybe 100 miles. I want to be able to drive it, and yes, have power when I hit the loud pedal.
 
4spdragtop said:
Sounds like you want a reliable driver for you and the young lad? Nothing too hp crazy? Post(like you did) what your goals and your skills are. Members here will be able to help guide you BUT if your skills are limited you could get frustrated. It's hard to interpret/translate everything thru the net.
You could have someone(a member) in the area drop by for an afternoon to help assess/diagnose the problem(s)? Offer up a meal and a beer, and make a friend? Then from that point you could assess whether an engine swap us what you want. Black smoke could also be valve seals?
Just trying to offer up options.
Good luck
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Thanks, hadn’t thought about valve seals. I have found a Mopar guy that has a machine shop. He was recommended to me any a race engine builder, whose shop built me a W-2 355” motor back in the 90’s. He can’t do anything until Fall, and I would like to drive it this summer. Actually, what we re thinking is a mild 412”. Use my block, and do the striker thing. Although, there are some that think that is just what I have now. I bought it as a 360 plus 60, but the torque seems to be much stronger than 360’s I’ve been around. Just thinking and assessing ideas. This is the first Mopar guy here in my town, that seems like us Mopar guys of years past.
 
toolmanmike said:
Sounds like you need to get the rich running issue fixed first. A 3.23 gear won't make the black smoke go away. Have you tested the fuel pressure? You may need a regulator. Edelbrock's like 5# or less. Holley's no more than 7# as a guideline.
Click to expand...
Thanks, we’ll look at that. The compression is 11-1, and that is why I’m looking at a rebuild. It’s .060 over now, I don’t know how much a 360 can take. This engine was built in 2011, and I have a feeling that it was run pretty hard after that. I talked to the guy that I bought it from, but he knows not much. At least one thing, I found a good Mopar guy. Lee Nelson, who bought Gary Ostrich’s name and shops 25 years ago, recommended him. Lee said that he could do this, but can’t get to it before Fall. And so far, Brad seems like one of the good guys. He lives in my area, which is even better. As for the gear change, no it won’t make the smoke go away, but it will take care of 3000 rpm at 50 mph though. Tomorrow, my son and I are going to jack up the beast, and see just what ratio is in there. It was suppose to have been changed to a 3:55 before I ought it, and if that is a 4:11, then maybe it would be best to go with a 3:55. I remember back in the old days, I just hated those 3:23 gears that most all the Mopar came with.
 
14 posts and still no idea about what trans is in it or stall if automatic, still no idea about rear gears.

Gears can make or break your combo. let's say you have a manual trans, and 3.55s. Your starter gear is 2.66x3.55=9.44.. That means for every foot pound of torque coming out of the crankshaft,~9.44 will be going into the rear axles. Lets say your 360 has 180 ftlbs at 1800rpm at WOT. That means when you floor it at 1800, then 180x9.44=1700 are going into the rear axles. That's torquey but not exceptionally so. with 4.10s this works out to 1960 Ftlbs into the rear axles, still not exceptionally torquey.

If you have an regular Mopar automatic, the low gear is 2.45, so then the starter is 2.45x3.55=9.70 and the output into the rear axles is 9.70x180=1570; still at 1800rpm. ( 4.10 would make it 4.10/3.55x1570=1813)
Well it would be except for the wonderful workings of the Torque Convertor. Inside the Tc a strange phenomenon of Torque Multiplication happens. And it is expressed as a ratio. So this ratio varies from a high of up to 2:1 to a low of perhaps 1.05:1. The highest ratio is attained with the greatest torque differential thru the TC, usually at zero Mph. Lets say yours can hit 1.7 (I'm just guessing). so then into your rear axles would go 1.7x1570 =2660ftlbs with the 3.55s; (still beginning at 1800rpm) and that gets instant tirespin. Now, that's getting torquey! As soon as the tires break loose, the TM starts falling, and eventually it might hover at 1.08 typically, in higher gears. But your rpm is simultaneously rising, climbing up the torque band, and as long as you stay on the gas, the tires will continue to spin, until you either run out of rpm or power, or the speed catches up to the rpm. So 2660 is a good starting number at zero mph. By 3000 the engine torque might have risen to 300ftlbs, and because you are now accelerating,the ratio might have dropped to 1.4, so the new TM into the rear axle might be;
300x2.45x3.55x1.4=3650. That's really torquey!This is easily enough to sustain the tirespin.
With 4.10s the numbers could be 4.10/3.55x3650=15.5% higher or 4215 ftlbs. That's outrageously torquey!! That is a really impressive number, making the engine feel really powerful............ but it's a lie; The engine is still the same one I started out with, now having it's power enhanced by the total TMs available.

What I'm saying is even a 318 can make that number in first gear.

The problem comes in top gear, where the TM in the trans is down to 1:1, and the TC has settled down to 1.08. Now the playing field has been leveled and it's all motor. And of course, with a manual trans you don't get the TM from the TC. This is why, from the factory, manual trans cars usually got 3.55s as compared to autos getting 3.23s. Guess what the difference is; hyup 3.55/3.23=1.099, just about the same as what's in the TC. They did that so the manual trans guys wouldn't "feel" the TM loss and interpret it as a genuine engine powerloss.

So the bottom line is you keep saying the engine "is" torquey, but you don't know that; Cuz you have no dyno sheet nor a speed-test timeslip, nor do we know anything about your TM.
The thing that you do know is that it "feels" torquey.
It may in fact "be" torquey, I'm not arguing that point; it's all in the combo. I'm just pointing out the difference from feeling to being.
And here's why;
A torquey engine is a pleasure to drive, with any gears. It may not be quick, but it can be fun in at least one or maybe two gears.
Whereas an engine that is a PITA to drive is usually not very torquey. It usually requires a higher stall TC and/or gears to eliminate the softness at the bottom, and the powerband is often severely restricted...... making it
" uncomfortable" and "not much fun".

But then in post 12 you spring a new one on me at least; Now you are talking about more power and less gear, but still have only hinted at what makes it "not fun, or uncomfortable", which I'm guessing,could be, at least partly, the 3000rpm at cruising speed.
This is the same problem every StreetRodder ever born has run into.And the solutions are always the same, either;
a lower final-drive ratio, and a bigger engine; not a more powerful little engine. OR;
a close progressive ratio trans with an overdrive, and more gears, and a higher performance rear gear, and an engine powerband to exploit the new combo.Going bigger now, only exacerbates the tirespin. Think 80s 5.0Mustangs; tiny engines and 5speed manuals.
For a streeter, it's all about TM and torque; the right amount at the right time.
Unless you just like burning rubber....and have the wherewithal to do it. I mean I can't argue that lol, cuz that has my name written aaaaaaall over it, lol.
 
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It has a torque flight, 727, with an upgraded torque converter, I was told when I bought this car. It does have a shift kit in it, as well. As I said earlier, this car was raced the first couple of years after it was built in 2011. That’s why it had the 4:ll’ s in it. I guess what I have figured out, actually before but here has been made more clear, cam and compression. And with a little less gear, should make it more live able on the street. And, I do want to thank you for your long post here, and yes, it makes a lot of sense. Thank you.
 
I'm 4 hrs from Des Moines... just a little out of reach to lend a helping hand. :BangHead:
 
fishmens67 said:
There's always the bus and a spot for your tools in the belly. :thumbsup:
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Yeah, and what if I forgot a tool or two - I'm not coming 5 hours to get them.... The gas cost would eat up any money that I could earn...

Why don't you come fix it????
 
Well yesterday, we crawled under the little guy, and found out some interesting things. One, the 3rd member housing is a 741 case. But, the good part is that it is a suregrip, and works. Now for the gear ratio, and this is the old fashioned way, it is seems that this is either, a 3:23 or a 3:55, as it is just over 3 turns on the drive shaft for one complete turn on the wheel. So, maybe the speedometer gear is set for a 2.92 or 2.73. Does that make sense?
 
All that i can say for my thinking that it had a much steeper gear is, well it felt like it was. It seemed that the rpm was a lot higher than I thought that it should be, and I was comparing this to the other cars with rear wheel drive that I have had. Thanks for the many comments that I have received. Thank you.
 
Now to figure out the engine part. As for tools, I have basic tool, just not the latest up to date stuff than most of you all have. And if you are in the Chicago area, that's 5-6 hours, depending on how one goes.
Thanks for the idea.
 
hemisedan said:
Well yesterday, we crawled under the little guy, and found out some interesting things. One, the 3rd member housing is a 741 case. But, the good part is that it is a suregrip, and works. Now for the gear ratio, and this is the old fashioned way, it is seems that this is either, a 3:23 or a 3:55, as it is just over 3 turns on the drive shaft for one complete turn on the wheel. So, maybe the speedometer gear is set for a 2.92 or 2.73. Does that make sense?
Click to expand...
Yes and no,
IIRC you mentioned a 3000 rpm cruising speed.... which with 3.55s and 27"tires is; 65=2870rpm at zero-slip, so perhaps up to 3010 at 5% TC slip. Downhill with closing throttle could be less than 2870.
So if you your speed-O is saying 65mph simultaneously with 3000rpm, then it cannot be calibrated any closer. The next SpeedO gear in either direction will change the reading by about 3 to 4 percent which at 65 is ~2 or 3 mph.

Of course if your tach is in error.... who knows!
and then you are gonna have to make a run, timing the Mile-Markers, to prove 60mph = One mile in One minute, exactly. Then you would have at least one absolute.

The Speed-O gear for 3.55s is about 35 teeth.
The 2.94s would be ~.29,
so that is a difference of ~21%, and so your gauge should be reading 21% high, therefore; at 65actual mph, it might be showing 78mph ; fewer teeth spin faster to go with the slower-rotating driveshaft..
 
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Thanks for that. You are very detailed in this, and I appreciate it. What you say makes sense. I have one of the old, original Valiant brochures, I should get it out and find out just what a S6 with torqueflight used from the factory. I’ll bet it was a 2.94.
 
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