Cam advance question.

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Dragonbat13

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Ok, im getting parts for a budget rering smogger 360 with stock heads. Of course compression is low. I do have headers, hi rise dual plane, comp xe262 cam. I am strongly considering Rhodes superlube original lifters. I need to get a timing chain. What I want to know is, if I should look into chains that will allow me to advance the cam?

On a side note, if you had a 650 afb and a 750 AVS which would you run? I'm leaning towards the 650.
 
Why do you want to advance the cam? Don't make an assumption that it needs to be done.

Sad as it is, the April 2020 edition of Hot Rod magazine has an exellent article on cam timing. It's worth the read even if you have to go buy that rag.

Pay very close attention when the Comp guy is talking about "centering" the overlap "triangle".
 
I think that cam is just right as is for what you're doing. No way would I use Rhoads lifters on it. I think I would also install it right where the cam card says.
 
Cams should always be degreed in.

Forget about “advanced” or “retarded”.

Determine where you want the intake c/l to be..... and put it there.

For that cam, I’d shoot for an intake c/l of 106.
 
Degree it, and yes get a multiple key way timing chain, for example I installed a camshaft straight up did a compression test it was at 130 psi the camshaft was in at 110 advanced it 4 degrees went up to 150psi to 106 this is in an automatic car though pretty quick and gets 15mpg city driving with 3.55
 
When you advance a cam, you steel the degrees from the power stroke and from the Effective overlap.
On a 262* cam you've got plenty of degrees for everything to go down, so you can more or less do what ever you want.
As for the carb, and that cam; a 500 to 650 is lots. Again, the 750 AVS is very flexible so run whatever you already have.
 
budget rering smogger use the smaller carb
are the primaries the same size?
if one is smaller use the smaller
the cam is ground 4 degrees advanced
put it in where comp says to or a couple of degrees advanced- I think it is ground 110 so 106 sounds about right
remember it's an asymmetrical lobe so work from the .050 up from the base circle to find lca
lca measured from the top down each side will be retarded
that's why so many want to install really advanced
they have to do that just to get to the real ICL
Ask Comp
They're retarded
prove me wrong- it's my turn
 
yellow rose said:
Why do you want to advance the cam? Don't make an assumption that it needs to be done.

Sad as it is, the April 2020 edition of Hot Rod magazine has an exellent article on cam timing. It's worth the read even if you have to go buy that rag.

Pay very close attention when the Comp guy is talking about "centering" the overlap "triangle".
Click to expand...
I did not say I wanted to advance the cam. I asked if I needed a timing chain that would allow a cam to be advanced.


RustyRatRod said:
I think that cam is just right as is for what you're doing. No way would I use Rhoads lifters on it. I think I would also install it right where the cam card says.
Click to expand...
Part of the reason for the Rhodes lifter was for "the hope for a good hydraulic lifter". I would use Johnson lifters... But that's only because Hughes sells them. (In all honestly I Believe hydraulic lifters are failing in performance situations because the spring load is too high. For instance I am going to run comp 901-16 springs instead of Hughes 1110. I gotta research more on that.

PRH said:
Cams should always be degreed in.

Forget about “advanced” or “retarded”.

Determine where you want the intake c/l to be..... and put it there.

For that cam, I’d shoot for an intake c/l of 106.
Click to expand...
I don't have alot of money for this build.... I gotta do the work.

Slantsix64 said:
Degree it, and yes get a multiple key way timing chain, for example I installed a camshaft straight up did a compression test it was at 130 psi the camshaft was in at 110 advanced it 4 degrees went up to 150psi to 106 this is in an automatic car though pretty quick and gets 15mpg city driving with 3.55
Click to expand...
an answer that was helpful with some real world numbers.

273 said:
If you got both carbs try both.
Click to expand...
I got both carbs. THIS MAN IS SO RIGHT WITH SIMPLE LOGIC!

Wyrmrider said:
budget rering smogger use the smaller carb
are the primaries the same size?
if one is smaller use the smaller
the cam is ground 4 degrees advanced
put it in where comp says to or a couple of degrees advanced- I think it is ground 110 so 106 sounds about right
remember it's an asymmetrical lobe so work from the .050 up from the base circle to find lca
lca measured from the top down each side will be retarded
that's why so many want to install really advanced
they have to do that just to get to the real ICL
Ask Comp
They're retarded
prove me wrong- it's my turn
Click to expand...
I wish you would learn some punctuation. You seem to know wtf your talking about..... But I can't read your advice.
 
Dragonbat13 said:
I did not say I wanted to advance the cam. I asked if I needed a timing chain that would allow a cam to be advanced.



Part of the reason for the Rhodes lifter was for "the hope for a good hydraulic lifter". I would use Johnson lifters... But that's only because Hughes sells them. (In all honestly I Believe hydraulic lifters are failing in performance situations because the spring load is too high. For instance I am going to run comp 901-16 springs instead of Hughes 1110. I gotta research more on that.

I don't have alot of money for this build.... I gotta do the work.

an answer that was helpful with some real world numbers.

I got both carbs. THIS MAN IS SO RIGHT WITH SIMPLE LOGIC!


I wish you would learn some punctuation. You seem to know wtf your talking about..... But I can't read your advice.
Click to expand...

Crower has excellent lifters. They offer the Camsaver lifters that oil the lobes directly.
 
Shelf cams typically have 4 degrees advance built in so no need for timing gears with extra keyways in most cases. Degree it of course to verify where its at. But I’ll go out on a limb here, “most”........ that use an off the shelf cam likely will just stick em in and call it a day and will never need the additional keyways as they’ll never mess with advancing or retarding a cam. Me, with custom grinds (no advance) I’d go with something like this here Rollmaster with keyways in two degree increments. Put it where you want.

AE2A01BE-4531-4A9E-9071-3A399BFB4DEF.png
 
Dragonbat13 said:
I did not say I wanted to advance the cam. I asked if I needed a timing chain that would allow a cam to be advanced.



Part of the reason for the Rhodes lifter was for "the hope for a good hydraulic lifter". I would use Johnson lifters... But that's only because Hughes sells them. (In all honestly I Believe hydraulic lifters are failing in performance situations because the spring load is too high. For instance I am going to run comp 901-16 springs instead of Hughes 1110. I gotta research more on that.

I don't have alot of money for this build.... I gotta do the work.

an answer that was helpful with some real world numbers.

I got both carbs. THIS MAN IS SO RIGHT WITH SIMPLE LOGIC!


I wish you would learn some punctuation. You seem to know wtf your talking about..... But I can't read your advice.
Click to expand...


Ok, you phrased your question in an odd way. That's what prompted my response.

The correct answer is get a timing set that is adjustable. Tolerance stacking is a real issue. You have the key locations in the crank and cam, and the groove locations in the both gears as well. Any one or all of them can be off. The cam grinder can miss getting the lobe in the correct location (seen that so many times with regrinds it's not funny) so don't count that out.

You MUST degree the cam to know exactly where it is, and the only way to correct it if it's wrong is to have a timing set that has multiple key ways or use an offset key.

So the question should have been do I need an adjustable timing set. Answer: YES.
 
I ran Hughes HD anti-pump-ups on the 1110 springs with no problems at all, even shifting 7200 , on OOTB Edelbrocks.
That 262 comp, In my engine, would be straight up. But my engine has an 11/1 Scr, so it has a mountain of pressure. I might even run it a lil retarded to stretch the rpm out on the top, and to suck a lil more energy out of the fuel while cruising..
 
I'd watch Hughes - well all of them on spring pressure
lighter valves (smaller stems), beehives AND PROPER GEOMETRY
all allow less spring pressure
or more revs with the same

Mike Jones wrote years ago
Compared to a normal "Flat Flanked" cam,
my I.R. profiles
1 make more power, and are more reliable, or
2 we can make one to make even more power, and be just as reliable, or
3 we can make one to make a bunch more power, and be less reliable.
For the street, I'd go with option 1, but it's really up to the customer.

same logic applies to flat tappet cams or HRs
I'm not doing heads up drag racing where the answer is number 3

(so which should Krooser pick for his circle track build?)
 
On the shorter lobes you have a better chance on dot to dot
when they go big or change the LCA from what the billet was made for then the timing can be way off just to fit the lobe on the billet
bottom line is you have to check
maybe with your old timing set to see if you need a multi adjustable one
and check with your camgrinder to see how they want you to set the timing
 
The dial indicator and mag base can be had from harbor freight or amazon for about $25. A degree wheel, about $15. you can also print out a degree wheel from the internet and use cardboard to mount it up. You will likely need an extension rod which are in the $5 range or a kit is 20ish. You could do this with just the mag base and dial indicator if you are resourceful.

Spend a couple bucks to do it right the first time would be my suggestion.

Teh tolerance stacking issue will pop up. Had a cam that was supposed to be straight up at 106, The cam was cut 6 degrees retarded, chain, dot to dot another 4 behind... the cam was 10 degrees retarded from just those two items alone. That engine would not have run anywhere near right with that cam timing issue.
 
cracked
did you do your checking by finding the ICL by measuring down equal distances from the tip of the lobe
or from the .050 up from the base circle lift and the timing card numbers for IO IC EX-O EX-C
thanks
 
12many said:
Shelf cams typically have 4 degrees advance built in so no need for timing gears with extra keyways in most cases. Degree it of course to verify where its at. But I’ll go out on a limb here, “most”........ that use an off the shelf cam likely will just stick em in and call it a day and will never need the additional keyways as they’ll never mess with advancing or retarding a cam. Me, with custom grinds (no advance) I’d go with something like this here Rollmaster with keyways in two degree increments. Put it where you want.

View attachment 1715470519
Click to expand...

Sorta right and sorta not. "Not all" camshaft grinders use 4*. Also, "some" cam grinders won't tell you what they "grind in". Lastly, I never, ever include the "supposed" ground in advance in anything I do, be it purchasing parts, or degreeing it in. I use the degree wheel for that. Even cam cards do not take the "ground in" advance into consideration, I don't believe. Noe of them I have ever degreed in seemed to anyway.
 
crackedback said:
The dial indicator and mag base can be had from harbor freight or amazon for about $25. A degree wheel, about $15. you can also print out a degree wheel from the internet and use cardboard to mount it up. You will likely need an extension rod which are in the $5 range or a kit is 20ish. You could do this with just the mag base and dial indicator if you are resourceful.

Spend a couple bucks to do it right the first time would be my suggestion.

Teh tolerance stacking issue will pop up. Had a cam that was supposed to be straight up at 106, The cam was cut 6 degrees retarded, chain, dot to dot another 4 behind... the cam was 10 degrees retarded from just those two items alone. That engine would not have run anywhere near right with that cam timing issue.
Click to expand...

A perfect example of my last post ^^^^^^^^
 
RustyRatRod said:
Sorta right and sorta not. "Not all" camshaft grinders use 4*. Also, "some" cam grinders won't tell you what they "grind in". Lastly, I never, ever include the "supposed" ground in advance in anything I do, be it purchasing parts, or degreeing it in. I use the degree wheel for that. Even cam cards do not take the "ground in" advance into consideration, I don't believe. Noe of them I have ever degreed in seemed to anyway.
Click to expand...
I’ll just say in my dealings....The 4 degrees advance seems to be pretty common these days from what I’ve encountered. Isky does on their shelf grinds and on one custom I’ve ordered, on another custom from them I asked not to. Both Lunati Voodoos recently bought were, and the Bullet custom I spec’d they mentioned they could advance it for me, I said no. But yeah, degree to verify regardless.
 
12many said:
I’ll just say in my dealings....The 4 degrees advance seems to be pretty common these days from what I’ve encountered. Isky does on their shelf grinds and on one custom I’ve ordered, on another custom from them I asked not to. Both Lunati Voodoos recently bought were, and the Bullet custom I spec’d they mentioned they could advance it for me, I said no. But yeah, degree to verify regardless.
Click to expand...

You're right, it is VERY common. But not 100% standard across the board. That's why I suggest the wheel man. The wheel. lol
 
12many said:
I’ll just say in my dealings....The 4 degrees advance seems to be pretty common these days from what I’ve encountered. Isky does on their shelf grinds and on one custom I’ve ordered, on another custom from them I asked not to. Both Lunati Voodoos recently bought were, and the Bullet custom I spec’d they mentioned they could advance it for me, I said no. But yeah, degree to verify regardless.
Click to expand...


Like I've posted before...Comp started that crap so the guys who do the dot to dot thing would get the ICL where they wanted it, without bushings, offset keys or multiple key way timing sets.

There is ZERO reason not to degree a cam and the tools to do it are cheap. The process of degreeing a cam is relatively simple. And no one should invest in a timing set that doesn't have multiple key ways in it.

Degree the cam. Every time. And then you KNOW, for a fact where the cam is.

I hope the OP has seen the weight of advice for degreeing the cam and he does it. Then he can be sure the cam is where it should be.
 
yellow rose said:
Like I've posted before...Comp started that crap so the guys who do the dot to dot thing would get the ICL where they wanted it, without bushings, offset keys or multiple key way timing sets.

There is ZERO reason not to degree a cam and the tools to do it are cheap. The process of degreeing a cam is relatively simple. And no one should invest in a timing set that doesn't have multiple key ways in it.

Degree the cam. Every time. And then you KNOW, for a fact where the cam is.

I hope the OP has seen the weight of advice for degreeing the cam and he does it. Then he can be sure the cam is where it should be.
Click to expand...

They started it for that AND also because people "generally" choose a cam that's too big and the extra 4* will kinda help that.
 
I have the tools to degree the cam in, and I like the rollmaster set.

Alot of good info that I never heard of on this thread. Thanks a bunch fellas!!
 
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