Supercooling gas for more horsepower...

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Brooks James

Brooks James

VET, CPT, Huey Medevac Pilot
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I'm always looking for cheap horse power, lol
I've been researching using dry ice (frozen carbon dioxide) to get the gas at near -100 degrees. I'm reading that gas freezes at around -100. My idea is to use a cool can to load up with dry ice chips.
The answers I'm finding are all over the place !

Any input from anyone here ?
 
Yes, even on 8.0 1/8 mile cars i know for a fact even just ice in a cool can and putting a bag of ice on the intake will net 3 or more tenths.. fact
 
Works for me !

IMG_20220623_205731231.jpg
 
The theory of icing the intake was so it wouldn't heat soak the carb to 200 degrees between rounds. This was even more helpful in the days before air gap intakes. Cool can kept the carb from getting heat soaked during staging and burnout when there's not much cool air moving through the engine compartment, especially at tracks where you weren't allowed to open the hood in staging lanes. Hot restart problems from vapor lock in the staging lane is no good.

Not sure about the dry ice. It might be possible to over cool the fuel and cause problems with atomization. Also dry ice as it melts (sublimes) creates carbon dioxide. Not sure I'd want to risk building a CO2 cloud under the hood and possibly sucking it in at launch. They fill fire extinguishers with that stuff.
 
Gaseous CO2 won't hurt anything going down an intake except your power.

You really don't want cold fuel. You want cold air, and fuel vapor. Fuel vaporizes better when hot, hence the exhaust crossover on old street intakes. The only reason the cool can did anything (which I've never seen on a dyno) was because it cooled the fuel, and the fuel absorbed heat from the air to vaporize (which is kind of the same benefit as a fresh air intake).

If it's too cold, it simply won't have time to vaporize from carburation to intake. You're wanting to try to take it close to sublimation.

If you're that worried about it, run alcohol.
 
C130 Chief said:
The theory of icing the intake was so it wouldn't heat soak the carb to 200 degrees between rounds. This was even more helpful in the days before air gap intakes. Cool can kept the carb from getting heat soaked during staging and burnout when there's not much cool air moving through the engine compartment, especially at tracks where you weren't allowed to open the hood in staging lanes. Hot restart problems from vapor lock in the staging lane is no good.

Not sure about the dry ice. It might be possible to over cool the fuel and cause problems with atomization. Also dry ice as it melts (sublimes) creates carbon dioxide. Not sure I'd want to risk building a CO2 cloud under the hood and possibly sucking it in at launch. They fill fire extinguishers with that stuff.
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Thanks, I did find some info that said that too cool would decrease the flash point and volatility
 
Great post chock filled with what I have seen. Though I’d slightly disagree on the fuel to a point. “Super Cooling” the fuel is not a good idea. Running cooler fuel is helpful. Running a cool can helps there. Just regular ice in the can.

Cooler air is the main key. Ether via a sealed air entry to the hood and its scoop or a do it yourself CAI like what they have for modern cars.

When the summer heat is on, even the air at the track is a good temp drop from the air inside the engine compartment. Cooler fuel will help. It’s just a little bit, but it helps.

jos51700 said:
Gaseous CO2 won't hurt anything going down an intake except your power.

You really don't want cold fuel. You want cold air, and fuel vapor. Fuel vaporizes better when hot, hence the exhaust crossover on old street intakes. The only reason the cool can did anything (which I've never seen on a dyno) was because it cooled the fuel, and the fuel absorbed heat from the air to vaporize (which is kind of the same benefit as a fresh air intake).

If it's too cold, it simply won't have time to vaporize from carburation to intake. You're wanting to try to take it close to sublimation.

If you're that worried about it, run alcohol.
Click to expand...
 
jos51700 said:
Gaseous CO2 won't hurt anything going down an intake except your power.

You really don't want cold fuel. You want cold air, and fuel vapor. Fuel vaporizes better when hot, hence the exhaust crossover on old street intakes. The only reason the cool can did anything (which I've never seen on a dyno) was because it cooled the fuel, and the fuel absorbed heat from the air to vaporize (which is kind of the same benefit as a fresh air intake).

If it's too cold, it simply won't have time to vaporize from carburation to intake. You're wanting to try to take it close to sublimation.

If you're that worried about it, run alcohol.
Click to expand...
I had thought about alcohol but at this time I not ready for the initial expense and added learning curve
 
rumblefish360 said:
Great post chock filled with what I have seen. Though I’d slightly disagree on the fuel to a point. “Super Cooling” the fuel is not a good idea. Running cooler fuel is helpful. Running a cool can helps there. Just regular ice in the can.

Cooler air is the main key. Ether via a sealed air entry to the hood and its scoop or a do it yourself CAI like what they have for modern cars.

When the summer heat is on, even the air at the track is a good temp drop from the air inside the engine compartment. Cooler fuel will help. It’s just a little bit, but it helps.
Click to expand...
Agree with cooler air. Most places I have read say around 15 extra horsepower from ram air
 
You guys need to subscribe to motortrend and watch engine masters. They test just this. Also Richard Holderner just did a bunch of fuel cooling testing on the dyno.
 
jos51700 said:
Gaseous CO2 won't hurt anything going down an intake except your power.

You really don't want cold fuel. You want cold air, and fuel vapor. Fuel vaporizes better when hot, hence the exhaust crossover on old street intakes. The only reason the cool can did anything (which I've never seen on a dyno) was because it cooled the fuel, and the fuel absorbed heat from the air to vaporize (which is kind of the same benefit as a fresh air intake).

If it's too cold, it simply won't have time to vaporize from carburation to intake. You're wanting to try to take it close to sublimation.

If you're that worried about it, run alcohol.
Click to expand...
"Close to sublimation" is definitely what I want
It definitely won't happen if I don't try it
 
TT5.9mag said:
You guys need to subscribe to motortrend and watch engine masters. They test just this. Also Richard Holderner just did a bunch of fuel cooling testing on the dyno.
Click to expand...
I am already subscribed! But they at least point the way.

Dyno results do not always work in the real world while under stress or outside the controlled environment of the test facility. Or I should actually say, work as well.

In this fuel example, a cool can will help best at let’s just say, 75*’s. Go to the desert in AZ or Los Vegas, during the summer months temps skyrocket and let’s say a cold November day in Michigan or New England will show a huge variance. How well does it work in each of the examples?
Will it follow the dyno curve?!?! LOL!!!

In Dan’s case, IMO, a cool can will help most of the year being in Florida. During the winter, I don’t think he will have to worry to much as temps are much more HP friendly. Day or night.
 
Rumble I do tend to agree with you that the results on a dyno will not necessarily dictate what will happen in a closed engine compartment under the hood of a car but the theory, and science behind the results they get are always interesting. The icing the manifold test was particularly interesting to me because I’ve seen racers doing that for years at the track and I’ve done it many times as well. Their results told me we should be focusing our efforts elsewhere and really what we’re doing is just making a puddle under our cars in the pits. I was surprised that Richard didn’t see similar results with his fuel cooling tests but as we know all combinations will be different and without testing you’ll never have facts.
 
Brooks James said:
Agree with cooler air. Most places I have read say around 15 extra horsepower from ram air
Click to expand...

Just to be clear, cooler (external scooped) air and ram air are two totally different things.
Especially on cars.
 
A temperature controlled dyno room is not the same as any real world drag strip I know of.

Have you looked in to adding a water-to-air intercooler for air intake along with a cool can for the fuel? Just a thought!
 
Brooks James said:
Agree with cooler air. Most places I have read say around 15 extra horsepower from ram air
Click to expand...

I'm going to retire soon, and plan on living significantly higher in elevation. I hate the power loss I feel when I drive up there, so I'm working towards putting super chargers on two of my rides.

I want to run chillers on the air intakes. Chillers are the heat exchangers fitted on the intake air ducts that are cooled via the A/C system. It's the same concept Dodge used on their Demons. I figure spraying methanol in them to lower air intake temperature, because that too is very effective in dropping air intake temps.

No plans as of yet to cool the fuel temp, as it will drop quite a bit as it flows through these two systems, but open to good ideas regarding that.
 
Furious65 said:
A temperature controlled dyno room is not the same as any real world drag strip I know of.

Have you looked in to adding a water-to-air intercooler for air intake along with a cool can for the fuel? Just a thought!
Click to expand...
Great idea !!
 
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