11.5's

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greaserkid

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well, i think the 408 is out of my price range at this point in time, so i think i'm gonna build up a 340 instead (it'll sound better, anyways).

my '75 scamp with me in it, i'm guessing weighs about 3200 lbs, but with no back seat & aluminum heads i think it'd be closer to 3100.

so, what would i have to do to make about 415 rwhp from a 340? Keep in mind i want a streetable gear (i was thinking 3.9 but correct me on that if i'm wrong), and it has power steering so that'll pull the engine down.
 
Personally, I think a 500hp 340 would probably end up costing you more than a 500hp 408. Not only that, the 408 would be much more streetable because of low end torque. Why do you need to go 11.5's anyway???
 
I'd be very interested in your explaination how a 415rwhp 340 will be more economical to build than a 408 stroker while giving up 68cuin? :violent1:
 
well, the stroker kit costs about a grand, 2 demon carbs costs about a grand, everything on the 408 in the article i read is built with high end performance parts, but with a really really mild cam.

so i figure building up a 340 would be about $1500 cheaper
 
Any well built 340 / 360 can produce 400 'flywheel' HP, but RWHP is a long stretch! Have you ever driven or been in a car on an 11.5 sec 1/4 mile run? It tends to flatten your eyeballs!! :) And the horsepower to attain that goal is only a small part of the total package. There's also the wheel/tire combo, suspension mods, setup, tuning, etc., etc. Believe me, a lot of guys tell you their STREET cars run 11.5's, but those that can actually put that on a time slip at the track are few and far between. I think you'll get a big bad suprise if you go and actually weigh that 75 Scamp of yours and see how close you DON'T come to 3100 lbs, even without you in it. A well thought out and tuned small block package will run low 13's on the street, and will blow the doors off most of the competition you'll encounter there. Whenever I build a new toy for the street, I always think of the old credo while I'm in the planning stage: 'Speed costs money - how fast can I afford to go?' Hight 12's to low 13's usually gives my wallet INDIGESTION!! :)
 
You could build a mild bigblock 400 like we dropped in my sons Dart. It just ran 11.59 @ 116.97 two weeks ago. And its actually less cubes then a smallblock stroker. Its a fairly cheap combo to build and its a very nice street driver combo. You can run 3.91's also as it ran 11.66 with the 3.91's and 11.59 with 4.30's. He plans to go back to the 3.91's.
Its a stock .030 over 400 shortblock with KB flattop pistons .025 down in the cyl. We did use the steel 383 crank and the rods are stock 400 rods. MP .557 cam on a 105 centerline. He bought Eddy heads and we threw them on bone stock just the way they came. I did mill them .040 for 10.2 comp and it runs fine on 93 pump. It has a old stock electronic dist that I recurved and set the total timing at 38. Holley Street Dominator intake with an 850 DP. CPPA chassis headers. Dynamic 9.5 convertor in a stock 727 with a TA manual v/b. We have never weighed the car buts its an all stock body with nothing missing and all stock suspension other the SS springs. No tubs or no moved springs but we did install the MP frame connectors. I would guess the car weighs at least 3400 and around 3600 lbs with the driver. Never dyno'ed but I would guess about 500 at the flywheel and around 410 to 425 at the wheels. Car runs 11.70's to 11.50's just like he drives it. In fact he drives it the 90 mile round trip to the track as its a real street car with working heat and all. Nothing trick or fancy at all and I honestly think it has 11.30's or better in it when we get time to really work with the combo.
If you still want to go smallblock I agree that the stroker will be better on all angles. Even if it cost a bit more them smallblock strokers run strong and you could run 11.50's very easy with a nice streetable smallblock stroker in that A-body. Good luck , Ron

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Gosh.....
For street use a 4" 360 crank is 350.00, HBeams 279.00-329.00, KB HyperTechs 400.00
M/R/C bearings 125.00, ......I dont think for a street/strip car 2000.00 Rotating assy is the way to go. The Cast 4" cranks, are good to 750 hp accordin to MA Mopar.

I've always Bought seperate compoents--its a dollar saver for ya.
 
11.5 on the street is very fast ----you almost cant control it on the street. My unit just ran 10.71@127 on the track----I have drivin it on the street, but you cant get out of 2nd gear(727 auto) with out getting to that limit when the car is getting around on the steet pavment telling you thats enough. Anything faster than low 13s is getting fast on the street,before it gets away from you--------and it will get away from you..If you want to make it fast do it at the track, the street proves nothing.
 
greaserkid said:
well, the stroker kit costs about a grand, 2 demon carbs costs about a grand, everything on the 408 in the article i read is built with high end performance parts, but with a really really mild cam.

so i figure building up a 340 would be about $1500 cheaper
Click to expand...

Unless you already own a 340 motor it will be cheaper to build a 360 because they are so much cheaper to start with. Also, the only additional cost to make a 408 from a 360 or a 416 from a 340 is the cost of the stroker crank which is $350 as Midnight mentioned.
 
I will say my son has no problem handling his Dart on the street. He is 19 and grew up around Mopars and muscle cars. His car will run solid 11.70's on bad days and has dipped in the 11.50's the one time we had it out in good air. But I have drilled into my boys to keep the racing at the track and thats why I enjoy letting them go racing at the track. I will also say he tries not to drive it in the rain just because he likes to keep it clean but he got caught in the rain twice this year. I see no problem with an 11.50 car as long as you got a smart head and know how to handle the car. If you dont know that then I agree an 11.50 car can get you in serious trouble. Ron
 
Greaser, what is your budget? A 500hp 340 is nothign to sneeze at, and can be done well for about $5K. You will still need to buy Edelbrock heads, or race prep factory ones, so there's a lot of money there. The shortblock wont cost more than $1800. It's all the other stuff that adds up. Cam, heads, intake, pushrods, tappets, springs, all add up quick. But, you can run in the 11s on a 340 with a hydraulic cam, and on pump gas, and ported factory heads. Just gets hard to do with 3.55s.
 
it's not a budget issue as much as it is a time issue

i wanna have it done by mid-summer, should be able to start it around feb/march, and pull in about $700 a month. Starting around may i'll be pulling atleast $1400 a month but we'll leave it at 7 & assume i don't work any overtime

so i guess around $3,500, which means i'll need to go with ported factory heads.

BJR gave me a list of stuff to get, like an m-1 intake, holley 750 cfm with mods, cam & lifters (mopar .528 cam and lifters, but i'll probably end up going with like a 5.01 so it's more streetable), headers, and which factory heads to get (1.88/1.60 valve heads 71-76 versions 915s or 587)

intake is about 2, carb with mods will prolly be around 6, cam & lifters'll be about 2, headers will prolly be about 5, so that's $1300. Factor in a new ignition, water pump, and electric fan (which i might have atleast 2 of before i even start it) and that's about $600, so $1900 total. For the block, heads & crank (though can't i use the 318 crank i have?) used i figure about a grand, so $2900, head work i called on & it's $500 to have the bowls cleaned up & have it gasket-matched, so that sets me at $3400, and the rebuild kit on the engine with the pistons & such should be about $300, pulling up a grand total of $3800 which leaves me, worst case scenario, $300 over. I also have a friend who works at a local parts store & can get atleast 20% discounts on stuff, which would save me about $200 for a total of $100 over what i wanted to spend, worst case scenario. Not bad at all
 
What you have described is a long way away form your stated goal of 415 HP at the wheels. Sounds pretty much like the 360 I built earlier this year which I figure has around 375 HP at the crank giving me somw what over 300 at the rear wheels.

I didn't see anything in your budget for machine shop work on the block or a valve job for the heads (porting is a seperate activity). It would add another $1500 to your budget for block, crank and valve machining plus balancing the rotating assembly.

Take a look at this thread http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=4798 It cronacles my 360 build and has some costs.

Even at the power level your build up is going to produce you need to beef up the bottom end with better main bearing bolts and the rods should have better bolts (which requires resizing and more machine shop cost) or go with aftermarket rods.

If time is an issue you are up in the dollar range that it may make more sense to purchase a crate motor.
 
Realisitcally, you have about $3800 then. We can work with that. I dont think you'll be able to make 415 to the tires, but 350 at the tires will get you into the 11s with careful setup, and can be done on factory heads. I'll break it down a little more for you. Shortblock (assuming you have a 340 longblock core to start): KB pistons, rod bolts, rings, bearings, OP, Oil pickup, dist drive and bushing, block hardware kit goes about $530. Machining-(you take it all apart) clean mag, check parts, machine crank, resize rods, align hone, square deck, bore torque plate hone, fit piston pins, install cam bearings, internal balance assembly, assemble short block $1630. Heads-performance Serdi valve job(5 angle), install larger valves, replace guides, set spring heights, pocket port and gasket match($500 for this is highway robbery BTW), plus good springs, performance valves, guides, seals, retainers and locks $1100. Cam and lifters (not MP...), timing set, pushrods, rocker assemblies, gaskets, FP eccentric, FP, carb, water pump, dist all new..$1200 depending on choices. The intake I'd get 2nd hand, same with sheetmetal covers and timing cover. So, the total is $4460, with some that could be saved on the parts choices for new WP, FP, and rockers(i figured $150 for thick MP stamped ones with new shafts). This engine has $250 worth of bowl work and gasket matching. It will make 450+ horsepower at the crank, all day, on pump gas..Hydraulic cam, easy to run. Doen this way, it would be warranteed for a year, and you wont break it, unless you go heavy on the spray, or rev it beyond 6500 on a regular basis. Any corner cutting would result in less power, and less quality..So, what are your thoughts?
 
Moper, don't forget he would still need the carb, headers, and ignition so that bumps it up at least another $1000 or so.
 
The cost of a new decent carb is in there, I include headers in teh cost of a good exhaust system, so they arent, and the distributor I'd simply recurve the one that comes in the core...Or an over the counter stock electronic for $25 plus $40 for the curving stuff. But you're right, there would still be "misc. stuff"..two oil filters, a case of oil, plugs, tune up stuff, belts, hoses, air cleaner, mounts/brackets,pullies, etc. all will add up, if you dont buya complete usable core. As I said, there are ways to "get by" without all new stuff, and limit the machine work. It can be done cheaper, but the important stuff gets compromised whenever you make cuts. The end result usually ends in some level of disappointment. How much and what you can live with is up to you. I aim for no disappointments. Also, knowing someone to get you a break on pricing helps..Just make sure he can get the stuff you need.
 
Swap meets, swap meets, swap meets, especially the Mopar ones! Also you should make a list of things your looking for and bring it with you, along with a Summit or Jegs catalog(to check prices and part numbers on stuff your not sure about) and go early!!! Be there WHEN the gates open or your probably missing out on a deal or two!
You could also post your list on various mopar forums in the parts wanted section then update it as you get the stuff you need.
Good luck
 
moper said:
Realisitcally, you have about $3800 then. We can work with that. I dont think you'll be able to make 415 to the tires, but 350 at the tires will get you into the 11s with careful setup, and can be done on factory heads. I'll break it down a little more for you. Shortblock (assuming you have a 340 longblock core to start): KB pistons, rod bolts, rings, bearings, OP, Oil pickup, dist drive and bushing, block hardware kit goes about $530. Machining-(you take it all apart) clean mag, check parts, machine crank, resize rods, align hone, square deck, bore torque plate hone, fit piston pins, install cam bearings, internal balance assembly, assemble short block $1630. Heads-performance Serdi valve job(5 angle), install larger valves, replace guides, set spring heights, pocket port and gasket match($500 for this is highway robbery BTW), plus good springs, performance valves, guides, seals, retainers and locks $1100. Cam and lifters (not MP...), timing set, pushrods, rocker assemblies, gaskets, FP eccentric, FP, carb, water pump, dist all new..$1200 depending on choices. The intake I'd get 2nd hand, same with sheetmetal covers and timing cover. So, the total is $4460, with some that could be saved on the parts choices for new WP, FP, and rockers(i figured $150 for thick MP stamped ones with new shafts). This engine has $250 worth of bowl work and gasket matching. It will make 450+ horsepower at the crank, all day, on pump gas..Hydraulic cam, easy to run. Doen this way, it would be warranteed for a year, and you wont break it, unless you go heavy on the spray, or rev it beyond 6500 on a regular basis. Any corner cutting would result in less power, and less quality..So, what are your thoughts?
Click to expand...


eh, i think i'll just stick to the original plan for now, it doesn't limit me in any way, i can always go back & get w2 or edelbrock heads & have any ammount of work done on them

even if it doesn't hit 400 at the ground & run's say...12.3, it'll still be able to beat most of the street cars in town
 
OK!, GOD I LOVE THIS KID! He has his mind in the right spot, now he is very realistic, $$$$$$$$$ don't mean everything, do what you want and listen to the people you want to! So I can't emphesise this enough I just got off the phone with Mr.mopartech, and he told me to have greaserkid to call him. E-mail him. We will get you there. Without a doubt.

BJR Racing
 
OK, I undrestand that most of you are comming from a street car perspective. This is cool but in his case he's trying to get to a goal. Now you can call me a liar but this is what I have done and this isn't new news, I have a 318 std bore with a .501 292 comp cams cam and a M-1 intake with a 750 vacume secondary carb. the car weighs in at 3100 lbs and the car runs 11.70s with a 904 and a very good stall converter from PTC,(a Kenny special) So how can anyone say that a 360 with everything that most have said be less, or even a 340? The last 360 I had ran 11.30s @3200lbs with a similar setup? Maybe I just don't understand?
Let me do this..............KID and I mean KID.............I will selll you one of my engines that will run and have the power of 11.5s for what you are wanting to spend. Just e-mail me or Mr.mopartech.

BJR Racing
 
hah, yes i'm a kid, don't hafta rub it in my face though :p
atleast i'm not building a ricer like most of my peers

anyhoo

about the engine, well, i would buy one off of you, except, i REALLY don't have the money, and won't for...months. Also, i kinda want the learning expirience, seeing how stuff works & learning first hand how to do things & all that. I don't wanna just go fast, i wanna KNOW HOW to go fast, make sense? Same reason i'm havin the guy that's doing my body work show me how to do what he's gonna do, i don't really wanna be one of those people who just copies stuff out of magazines, or takes out a loan & buys the best ebay car he can find with everything already done. That's for accountants, not blue collar guys

as far as calling/e-mailing you or mopar tech, well, i don't have phone numbers, and it won't let me e-mail you for some reason, so, hook me up! heh
 
You are now ready to being building...lol. trust me, a 12.3 car doesnt need that much power, and will be MUCH more fun than a 11.0s car with the power you're asking about. Keep us informed..
 
Greaser,
I put together mid 70s 360, 30 over,balanced,all the good bolts and studs,
w-2 race heads 2.08in 1.6oex,w/M1 sinlgle plain,holley 750 ,mp 590 lift 312 dur.,solid cam,(lots of valve adjustments,lifters always niosey disgust disgust)msd,headman headers,milodon oiling,727 w/kit,8.75 rear,w/4.10 drag radials 275/60 15 ,a power tracks locker,snuber,moser axles,machine work,not including countless nights till 3am in the mornin,you can put granma in this car ,go to the grocery store,take it out to the track and she can run 12,30s all night long with no tuning and drive home.Keep in mind it is a street car,this set up in a race car went 11.0s w/93 oct.@32 degrees timin the car w/3150 w/me in it.Spring relocated and disc brakes is the only thing modified with chassis.this set up has cost me 6 g`s from the word go and the W-2s igot at a swap meet poted and polished w out the 800dallar rockers for 500bucks.this car will go into 11.0s when i get the susp.tuned. now, it twist the car too bad off the line.this was a 6cyl car and i had to buy everything.anyway,have fun and remember BE SAFE!Your life or someone elses is NOT worth any amount of time or fun,race at the track :grin:
 
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