170 tips for a budget!

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David Boyd

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So, I found a 64 Valiant Base that was suppose to be a working Super 225. Now I did not know the difference at the time!! So, it did turn out to be a 170. Not working! I found a bent pushrod so I pulled the head for rebuild. Several broken bolts, but I hope all will be repairable. I do not have much budget to work with, but want the best bang for the buck. Motor has 66k on it and I have all new brakes and fuel tank, lines & pump. I figure to send the head to the machine shop for the rebuild. Would having it milled help? How much? What should I know before turning these youngsters loose?
Would I benefit from a two barrel intake? Exhaust?? Cam, lifters?
Sad part is I have a useable 318 with throttle body injection out of a van. No transmission. Not sure I can afford the transmission and parts to make the 318 a workable project.
All positive advice appreciated!
 
If it were me, I’d see about finding a 225 - nothing like an extra 55 cubic inches! People give decent running 225’s away as they’re swapping to a V8. Swap your 170 oil pan and pickup to your replacement engine as 67-later oil pans have clearance issues in the early A. If the replacement is a 68-later, get the crank bushing to mate your 64 trans to the motor. The 225 is a little taller than the 170 so the exhaust head pipe needs to be lengthened (no problem if going to a new exhaust). Use the carb from the 170 for the rotating throttle linkage, although a 2 barrel is a great upgrade. Others will be sure to offer their opinions as well.

EDIT: and welcome to the forum!
 
Don't dis-credit the 170. Honest opinion you really can't tell the power difference from the 170,198,225 in stock form. I am a firm believer in using what you have on a budget. Head can be shaved as much(and more) as .100 I have gone as much as .125.In your case I'd go about .060.The 198 and 225 pistons are in the hole quite a bit but the 170 are a zero deck engine.
Cost factor to install the V8 is going to cost you more by the time all is said and done.
2 bbl and a good 2 1/2'' SINGLE exhaust will be plenty. I never understand putting duals on a Slant other than increasing the weight of the car. It has no benefit.To each their own I guess.I have always felt if you are going to swap to a 2 bbl you might as well get a 4 bbl manifold with a small carb. I've always run a 500 AFB without a problem on the Slant engines.

Now You didn't state what the plan is for this car.If a street driven pup then don't go too crazy with the cam. Something in the .425-.450 range lift will be fine. Comp and Hughes make some nice Slant cams.Valve springs can be replacement stock 340 specs.That will get you 6,000 rpm with no problem.Most 170 cars had 3.23 gears and that is fine for the street.
I am guessing your plans are for (what I call a high school rebuild) clean up, rings and bearings,head work,cam and related parts.Other than that it's no longer a budget rebuild.That's all folks !
 
The bottom line is, it's never, ever going to run anything like a V8. If you're ok with that, then plug forward. Just know there's nothing short of forced induction (turbo or blower) that will make it have the power of a V8. Even a 225 will never have the torque of a V8 without forced induction. I love slants because they are different. Expecting a lot of power naturally aspirated though, is a very tall order.
 
I love my 170. I drive my 65 Valiant wagon all over the place.Sometimes like last week I go 400 miles up to my camp then use it all week and another 400 back home and get around 25 MPG ,I put a 4 speed in it from a 65 Barracuda and with the 323 rear she's a real fun car to drive.Bottom line is that the big money boys all want the hipo stuff,they can afford it and they can also afford to keep filling the tank. If you are on a budget then just enjoy what you have,make it as efficient as you can and drive that mother ! Photo taken last week on my trip

DSC03475.JPG
 
It's been argued (and a good one) that the 170 is perhaps the best slant, because it is an over square motor. That means the bore is bigger than the stroke is long. That makes for a snappy engine. I've driven both in stock form and IMO the 170 zings up in RPM quicker because of that. That means they get going quicker. The 225 would win out, but further up in the RPM range. The 170 with a 2 barrel and 2.5" exhaust would probably be a really snappy daily driver. I would not do the 2 barrel upgrade without the bigger exhaust, though.
 
Best bang for the buck: raise the compression ratio. Since the head is going to be off any way, take some measurements, and mill the head to get a true 8.5-9.0 CR. Don't worry about a cam change for a daily driver on a budget. A larger exhaust won't hurt, if the budget allows. For the going price of a super six 2bbl setup, probably better off get a used offie intake, and a small 4bbl with demand secondaries. I would not do the intake upgrade without doing exhaust. One thing to be aware of, as stated the 170 is a "zero deck" motor. Yo need to be carefull about how much is milled off the head along with how big a cam. The valves can hit the pistons if milling a lot, and running a decent cam, without valve reliefs in the pistons.

If only doing one thing, over and above just fixing what is bad, mill the head.
PS: A distributor recurve will also do wonders, and will be necessary, if you get the CR near 9.0-1
 
Bigger exhaust, recurve the dizzy 73 and up one with electronic ignition with lighter springs, port the head and mill it .050 for the 170 .100 for the 225.
 
Slantsix64 said:
Bigger exhaust, recurve the dizzy 73 and up one with electronic ignition with lighter springs, port the head and mill it .050 for the 170 .100 for the 225.
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Sorry, I don't agree. Bigger exhaust will do little to nothing for a stock engine, and be expensive for the small if any gain. Porting will help upper RPM, not much gain below 3,000 rpm. I do agree on the electronic dist with a recurve.
As for milling the head, why .050 for the 170, and .100 for a 225? That does not tell you what CR. Need to take measurments and determine how much to mill to get the desired CR. Milling the 170 .050 will really only gain a small amount of CR, as the first approx .020 will only make up for the difference in head gasket thickness, of the factory stamped steel gasket and the aftermarket composition gasket.
 
I'd listen to Charlie on this one. Not many guys building fast 170s anymore.

My 64 Dart was a 170 3spd. I ended up swapping in an A833 overdrive and a 3.55fd gear. In that light of a car it was fun and super reliable. Even averaged 23mpg! It was stock other than a slightly larger 1bbl off of a 225, and a 2.25" exhaust. While it wasn't fast, it was fun.

Since then I've gone to a warmed over 360/4spd setup. While it's significantly faster, I've found that I drive my Dart much less now. Gas mileage is horrible, it's always hot, clutch is heavy, parts break more, rear tires wear excessively, etc..

I often think about going back to a slant, just to improve driveability and comfort. Hell, I e still got two 170s in the shop sitting around...
 
Whenever Charlie speaks, I listen. Intently. I've seen his cars live and in person and they haul ***. And when I saw them, as he was explaining to me, they weren't tuned to run their fastest. He was just there to participate and have a good time. He was still haulin ***. Just curious Charlie........how long you been doin this now?

@Charrlie_S
 
Charrlie_S said:
Star


Been playing with the slant six since 1974. Mostly the 170.
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Same here. Got my first Valiant in 1974 and have always had one since. Slants are the best all around motors out there for cars that are in service like mine. I usually get them with over 100 thousand miles on the clock and go a good 10 years on them before a motor change.They are bullet proof
 
David Boyd said:
So, I found a 64 Valiant Base that was suppose to be a working Super 225. Now I did not know the difference at the time!! So, it did turn out to be a 170. Not working! I found a bent pushrod so I pulled the head for rebuild. Several broken bolts, but I hope all will be repairable. I do not have much budget to work with, but want the best bang for the buck. Motor has 66k on it and I have all new brakes and fuel tank, lines & pump. I figure to send the head to the machine shop for the rebuild. Would having it milled help? How much? What should I know before turning these youngsters loose?
Would I benefit from a two barrel intake? Exhaust?? Cam, lifters?
Sad part is I have a useable 318 with throttle body injection out of a van. No transmission. Not sure I can afford the transmission and parts to make the 318 a workable project.
All positive advice appreciated!
Click to expand...
Why not slide over to Slant6.org and talk to the master of all slant6 Doug Dutra he has even written a book on the topic.

Brian
 
Charrlie_S said:
Sorry, I don't agree. Bigger exhaust will do little to nothing for a stock engine, and be expensive for the small if any gain. Porting will help upper RPM, not much gain below 3,000 rpm. I do agree on the electronic dist with a recurve.
As for milling the head, why .050 for the 170, and .100 for a 225? That does not tell you what CR. Need to take measurments and determine how much to mill to get the desired CR. Milling the 170 .050 will really only gain a small amount of CR, as the first approx .020 will only make up for the difference in head gasket thickness, of the factory stamped steel gasket and the aftermarket composition gasket.
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So Charlie you run the stock exhaust size on your 170? 1 7/8 or 2 inch? I agree with you im not a 170 guy, i just remember reading the 170 has the pistons higher to the deck so i would be carefull milling the head so much as .100 but you always got to measure everything then measure again to be safe im not a 170 guy. its already hard hot rodding a six banger and expensive and even harder when starting with the smaller platform displacement 170
 
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Slantsix64 said:
So Charlie you run the stock exhaust size on your 170? 1 7/8 or 2 inch? I agree with you im not a 170 guy, i just remember reading the 170 has the pistons higher to the deck so i would be carefull milling the head so much as .100 but you always got to measure everything then measure again to be safe im not a 170 guy. its already hard hot rodding a six banger and expensive and even harder when starting with the smaller platform displacement 170
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Correct, you need to measure, so you know how much to mill to get the CR you desire.
The 170 I have on the street has 2 1/4 exhaust. The car needed new exhaust any way, so I went bigger (only $25 more then the stock size), and the engine is not stock.( I am not stating a larger exhaust will not help, but that it is not worth the money, unless it needs new anyway). It has .060 bore, mild cam, milled head for 9.5 CR. Stock exhaust and intake manifold. Just recently added a Holley 1bbl economiser carb (runs good, but haven't checked fuel mileage, yet)
The 9.5 CR is a little high (recommend 8.5-9.0 for the street) takes a lot of tweeking the distributer, and at least mid grade fuel, to keep from pinging. A friend and I built this engine/car for fuel mileage. Cam is a little too mild for the 9.5 CR. When I get a chance I will probably pull the head and replace the steel shim head gasket with a thicker one. That should drop the CR about .1-.2 points.
 
I have a 170 in my Valiant now. It is .060 overbored, ported big valve head, cam is ~225/220 at .050 lift, Offenhauser intake with Edelbrock 500 4 barrel, recurved electronic distributor with hei-conversion, 6-2-1 headers and 2,5" exhaust. Behind engine is 4 speed manual and 3.91SG rear. I have driven it only couple days, but I like it a lot :D It feels faster that stock V8
 
Ive got 8 good pushrods...After looking all over the web for 170 pushrods I feel like I might should keep they because they are so rare I might be able to use them as currency one day...haha
 
Slantsix64 said:
So Charlie you run the stock exhaust size on your 170? 1 7/8 or 2 inch? I agree with you im not a 170 guy, i just remember reading the 170 has the pistons higher to the deck so i would be carefull milling the head so much as .100 but you always got to measure everything then measure again to be safe im not a 170 guy. its already hard hot rodding a six banger and expensive and even harder when starting with the smaller platform displacement 170
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What I got from his exhaust response was that bigger exhaust will not help a STOCK engine. He's right. One with a two barrel, more compression, more cam then yes, it will help. Also as Charlie said, "if it needs exhaust anyway".
 
RustyRatRod said:
What I got from his exhaust response was that bigger exhaust will not help a STOCK engine. He's right. One with a two barrel, more compression, more cam then yes, it will help. Also as Charlie said, "if it needs exhaust anyway".
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I think a larger exhaust "might" help a stock engine a little bit, but not enough to spend the money on it, unless it needs a new system anyway.
 
I had a 2 inch system on my 66 Valiant 3 speed manual with a stock 170 and 323 rear years ago.It did nothing down low but on the highway at 55 mph when I hit the gas it really wound up fast . So it helped it up at the top which I liked when I was passing someone.
 
For a budget, mill the head .060 and get a good valve job. Single exhaust 2 1/4 pipe, small cam, 340 valve springs, factory 2 barrel intake and carb, electronic ignition, windage tray, and a big block high pressure oil pump spring. More Power, better mpg, and a lot more fun. Enjoy!
 
Charrlie_S said:
I think a larger exhaust "might" help a stock engine a little bit, but not enough to spend the money on it, unless it needs a new system anyway.
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I agree. They had these things engineered out pretty good in stock form.
 
66fs said:
For a budget, mill the head .060 and get a good valve job. Single exhaust 2 1/4 pipe, small cam, 340 valve springs, factory 2 barrel intake and carb, electronic ignition, windage tray, and a big block high pressure oil pump spring. More Power, better mpg, and a lot more fun. Enjoy!
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Head mill (measure don't just pick a number) and valve job YES
Single exhaust 2 1/4 pipe Only if it needs exhaust work any way
Small cam, 340 valve springs YES
Factory 2 bbl intake and carb Only if the price is right, most factory super six manifolds are way overpriced, can usually find an Offie cheaper.
Electronic ign YES, with a recurve
Windage tray NO, little to no gain on a street engine, and price is more then the cost of a cam or head milling.
Big block oil pressure spring. OK but not necessary, is cheap, and won't hurt. Do not use a high voluum oil pump
More power, better MPG, more fun. Yes, for sure
 
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