1964 dart brake problems..

Brakes for your Classic Mopar

  1. 808-dartGT

    808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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    So when I got the car , I was told it had new shoes just needed bleeding (not sure why) so when I drove first time, brakes were pretty much non existent. I bled them, there was no air..
    Still no brakes ( well it’s slowing car down, but I think I can gear brake faster lol) no leaks. I figured maybe master is tired so I replaced it, brakes a little better, still scary to drive. I noticed lines were super rusty, so I figured while I mess with brakes I should replace them too. So today I replaced all lines steel and rubber, bled them and noticed no brake on rear passenger side. Again, no leaks, no air but only 3 wheels braking. I took well off and drum was very tight, I had to wiggle and get a mallet to remove drum. Seems like new hardware and shoes has meat, but emergency cable not hooked up and cylinder not moving shoes. I didn’t tore it apart because it was getting late, just readjusted shoe so it’s not as tight. Drove home, I get some brakes now, not good, not where I feel safe driving. My thoughts are getting new cylinder for the brake and maybe new hardware before tearing it up? I don’t really know what else might be a problem? Any thoughts? It’s hard for me to believe that one wheel would reduce braking power this much. Anything else I should look into? Thanks for reading
     
  2. 67Dart273

    67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Well these cars are as basic as you can get, some random comments

    If the drums are worn bad or have been turned (maybe more than once) the shoes won't have the same curvature as the drums and will be, in effect, diametrically smaller. This means only the center area of the shoe will fit the drum, and not only will the pedal feel less hard, but you will have less braking surface, and that small surface, in trying to do "all the work" will glaze and then you will have LESS braking.

    So far as stuck cylinders, all you can do is take it one step at a time and see what you have.

    When bleeding, start at the furthest cylinder from the master, likely the right rear (pass side).

    If you think the air is out and don't have enough pedal, temporarily adjust the shoes up tighter to see if it improves the pedal. Properly operating old school drum brakes should have what amounts to a "rock hard" pedal
     
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    • Dubob

      Dubob Well-Known Member

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      Power or manual brakes? Assuming the brake system is the original single pot master cylinder and it’s still drums on all 4 corners. When you bled the back brakes what was the fluid flow while bleeding? Less on right rear than drivers? It could be the port on distribution block off master cylinder, or splitting block on rear has junk in one or other restricting fluid flow. Could very well be the wheel cylinder is the issue. But the cylinders have to have good fluid volume to operate any restrictions will impact them. Another issue could be the shoes are not adjusted tight enough to push fluid every where in the system. Did you bench bleed the master cylinder before installing? Just some thoughts off top of my head where I’d look, fishing for information.
       
    • 67Dart273

      67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      If you have a decent height pedal and fairly hard, first make sure the cylinders none are stuck. This will lkely require two people. Next inspect the drums and shoes. You will have to 'mike' the drums for accurate size. It also might be the shoes are glazed and along with poor fit, the lining simply won't give you decent performance.
       
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      • rustycowll69

        rustycowll69 Well-Known Member

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        consult a FSM or Motors Manual. study the pics carefully to make sure everything is in its proper position. For the millionth time, make sure the long shoe faces the rear, short shoe faces front.
        you have to adjust the shoes outward with the adjusting wheel, first so the drum just slides on. If you have automatic adjusters, you have to back up and stop repeatedly to finish adjusting them.
         
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        • 808-dartGT

          808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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          Ok, so I have single pot, all drum no power. I don’t think distribution block or splitter are clogged, because when I bled breaks all 4 seems like having same flow.
          I did bench bleeding on a master before the install.
          Fluid comes clear and plentiful all 4 wheels .
          I did bled furthers one first (passenger rear, driver rear, passenger front, driver front- in that order)
          I’m still waiting for manual in a mail, it was getting late and I didn’t want to start pulling everything off that I wasn’t prepared for.
          I didn’t think about brakes being turned and how it would effect the curvature, it makes sense..
          What I’m going to do next time is get the picture of what it supposed to look like and check all 4 drums, like I mentioned before, I only looked at one wheel after noticing it’s not braking at all when I spin it by hand. I had my daughter pushing the pedal and after noticing no brake on that wheel, I pulled it of , took drum of and told her push pedal repeatedly. Pads wouldn’t move at all.
          Thank you guys for ideas
           
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          • valiantwagonguy

            valiantwagonguy FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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            After you get all the cylinders and lines worked out contact Craig (MOBILEPARTS ) his user name here . This is an ad he posted a while ago. I bought some and I gotta tell you,it is a different car with the asbestos brake shoes.
            His ad :
            avatar_m.png
            mobileparts
            Hey, everybody ---
            Great News ---- I have N.O.S. ++ Asbestos ++ Front &
            Rear 9" Brake Shoes ---Nice smooooooth braking &
            Not Ripping Up your brake drums!!!!!!
            I also have the 100 % correct brake hardware in
            N.O.S. U.S.A. made !!!!!!
            All inexpensive, too.
            I would happily give you my phone number to just simply call --- but the moderators of this website want us to do that through PMs....
            PM me --- I will simply call you back, Craig...


             
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            • 67Dart273

              67Dart273 FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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              • Slantsix64

                Slantsix64 Well-Known Member

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                I would change all wheel cylinders blow out the prop valve and all the lines with a compressed then bleed then adjust drums according.
                 
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                • 808-dartGT

                  808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                  I pulled the wheel off, piston is not moving at all, looks like someone tried to unfreeze it by tapping with a hammer, both sides have hammer markings. So now I have to make a decision how much to spend and how far to go with this... anywhere I look it’s a new project lol
                   
                • rustycowll69

                  rustycowll69 Well-Known Member

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                  I haven't bought wheel cylinders in a long time, so I don't know what the price point is, if you can somehow break it free a rebuild kit is pretty cheap, but you'll have to buy a wheel cylinder hone, so you have to factor that in.
                  Have you checked RockAuto for the wheel cylinders? the pistons are probably aluminum, so if they are seized there probably was water in the system.
                   
                • 808-dartGT

                  808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                  I’ll check rock auto, Amazon and eBay
                   
                • 808-dartGT

                  808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                  I’m looking for quality parts and to rebuilt complete drum brakes cost almost the same like convert to disc brakes lol
                   
                • rustycowll69

                  rustycowll69 Well-Known Member

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                  well, don't forget you already bought new brake hoses, right? And if you go disk you'll have to upgrade the m/c, too. And whatever you choose, you'll still have to fix the rear drums.
                   
                • mobileparts

                  mobileparts Well-Known Member

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                  Hey 808-dartGT,
                  I just PM'd you -- because where you asked me -- I didn't know how to answer you there.... So check your In Box -- and I left you my phone number....
                  And you (and everyone) is / are correct.... I do have the very best QUALITY parts -- and I try to keep them as inexpensive, as possible.....
                  Yours, Craig....
                   
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                  • 808-dartGT

                    808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                    I’ll call Craig and see what he can do for me
                     
                  • 808-dartGT

                    808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                    I talked to Craig from mobile parts and ordered drums, shoes and hardware, very reasonable and pleasure to deal with! Highly recommend him, it’s a little inconvenient for the ones that like to just click and order, but if you call you can get all kinda advice and knowledge! I should be getting it in a week or so, I’ll keep you posted once install is complete.
                     
                  • pishta

                    pishta I know I'm right....

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                    Raybestos rear wheel cylinders are under $5 on Rockauto, go crazy and get 2. Fronts are bigger bore 13/16. rears list 19/32?
                     
                  • 808-dartGT

                    808-dartGT Well-Known Member

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                    Cylinders I got of rock auto $5 plus $10 for shipping...
                     
                  • pishta

                    pishta I know I'm right....

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                    then I'd get all 4 to make shipping work. That's the issue with Rock, shipping costs. pay attention to that.
                     
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