318 Heads: bad valve job?

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RustyRatRod said:
No argument here. But how many races have been won and records set with good old Sioux grinding rocks? Certainly not saying they are better, but surely you cannot discount something that has stood the test of time for 100 years.
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Records are just a function of time. Stones are not better in my opinion but in the hands of a skilled guy (and with good stones and tight non-tapered pilots) they can come close to matching the Serdi stuff - they just take a lot more time to get there. Some believe the stone can get a finer finish for the actual seat angle and use cutters to cut and then stone to finish the seat angle. Using worn or cheap stones, or any type of tapered pilot is a lost cause even if God himself was doing them. The TCM-25 I have is decades old, uses cutters, and it could do a near-perfect seat. It's much more about the operator than the equipment - to a point.
 
moper said:
Records are just a function of time. Stones are not better in my opinion but in the hands of a skilled guy (and with good stones and tight non-tapered pilots) they can come close to matching the Serdi stuff - they just take a lot more time to get there. Some believe the stone can get a finer finish for the actual seat angle and use cutters to cut and then stone to finish the seat angle. Using worn or cheap stones, or any type of tapered pilot is a lost cause even if God himself was doing them. The TCM-25 I have is decades old, uses cutters, and it could do a near-perfect seat. It's much more about the operator than the equipment - to a point.
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Are you gonna ruin this great thread by thinkin again?
 
Back in the day

The 'Tobin-Arp' was the only Valve Seat Machine to use, to achieve
identical 3/Angle Valve Seats.

Followed by;
* Winona {#PH-2000}
* Peterson
* Kwik-Way
* IDL

'Serdi' took it to another level.
 
I don't think the valve train is that out of whack. Not perfect, but better than most generic rebuilt heads that I have seen. Since its not a race engine and with that mild of cam, I would run them.
 
moturbopar said:
I don't think the valve train is that out of whack. Not perfect, but better than most generic rebuilt heads that I have seen. Since its not a race engine and with that mild of cam, I would run them.
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Correct, for a 'General Stock' or Mild Performance Engine, everything
will be fine with those tolerance differences.

Guys forget that the Intake Valve {4.981"} is shorter than the Exhaust
Valve {5.005"}.

The Hydraulic Lifter is designed to handle any minor variation in
the Valve Height difference.

Sealed Power #V-1908 Intake Valve {1.88" Head Diameter} x {4.981" Length}

slp-v-2075_w_ml.jpg


Sealed Power #V-1307 Exhaust Valve {1.60" Head Diameter} x {5.005" Length}
MEL-V1307_ml.jpg
 
Guys, first of all, THANK YOU ALL for your time and attention!
I was getting really frustraded down here...

So, to start, I'd like to say that I got another "measurement instrument", a newer and more precise one, and I'm going to check it all again, as I found out my current tool might be off "a little", and that I was missreading it.
It should be here next week, as I got it from an online store.

Machine shops are not "abundant" in Brazil, I took my heads to the best in our town, the only one I actually didn't hear any complaints.
V8s are not very commom down here, so not every one has worked on them.
(none in my town accepts to install valve guides, to give an idea...)

So yes, not "everyone" is into racing...

69 cuda 440, thanks a LOT for the tips, and the PM!!

I imagined valve stem height was important, specially with non adjustable rockers.
I just don't have any "references" on what would be RIGHT, acceptable, or "do it again".

Rusty, I mentioned spring installed height thinking I could consider the retainers a reference, I hadn't noticed until that point that they were also "off".

What should I take as starting point, "ground zero" or someting like that, as evething I measured until now seems to be off?
Spring seats maybe?
I know those weren't ground...and as far as I could see, no shims installed.

How high should the tips of the stems be, from the spring seats?
Is it a trustable measurement?

All my valve seats were ground, all valves were ground to "mate" the surfaces, and exaust valves are new units oversize +15 on stems due to guide excessive play. Intakes were perfect in the guides.
The face of the heads was just "cleaned", as barelly no material was removed.
One important thing I missed is if valves were ground "2 angles" like stock or 3...I would guess 2, damn.

From the spring seats up, if there is a difference in hight to the retainers, it means the valve seats were ground to different depths?
If this is the case, the only way to correct it is regrinding valve seats?
What if most of the retainers are within specs, and only one or another are higher?
Could I shim these to correct spring instaled height and grind stem tips to correct valve stem hight, or is it a no no?
I guess this is more or less what 67 Dart 273 mentioned, but I don't know if that could be done to "just a few" peaces or if it only works for all of them.

67 Dart 273, that part about effective valve lash I really didn't get.
Guess I need some clarifing on that...

That talk about Soux and Serdi...are those "grinding" machines?
These kind of machines are not commom here...

I will measure chamber cc's, I was told break fluid is good for this purpose.
If I use it and get no leaks down the valves, is "sealing" ok, or that doesn't mean much because there's no pressure?


Ok, so, IF my measurements are correct, as it is right now, it wouldn't be a problem?
(to my engine combo?)

I deffinetly don't want a race engine, my intentions are having a RELIABLE and "a bit healthier" engine, to cruise and hit the road, as I intend to visit some distant car shows.

Once again, thank you all!!
As soon as I check measurements I'll post them here again.
 
Alex,

273 Intake Valve {1.78" Head Diameter} length = 4.981"




273 Exhaust Valve {1.50" Head Diameter} length = 5.003"

273-318-exhaust-valve-mopar.jpg
 
Alex "Berkowitz";1970179449 said:
...I will measure chamber cc's, I was told break fluid is good for this purpose.
If I use it and get no leaks down the valves, is "sealing" ok, or that doesn't mean much because there's no pressure...
Click to expand...

Brake fluid is expensive and corrosive. I usually use kerosene or diesel fuel and maybe a little automatic transmission fluid for color. I mean't so you could check the seal on the valves with the seats without taking the heads apart. It is a rough check but works pretty good.
 
moper said:
Sorry - on meds for some lung issues - apparently they're making me thoughtful and combative...lol.
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What.....wait. I thought that was the normal you. lol
 
66fs said:
Brake fluid is expensive and corrosive. I usually use kerosene or diesel fuel and maybe a little automatic transmission fluid for color. I mean't so you could check the seal on the valves with the seats without taking the heads apart. It is a rough check but works pretty good.
Click to expand...

Dick Landy,

Alcohol with Red Dye {preferably Dodge Red}...........
 
What you see on the tip height variation is common on rebuilder valve jobs, I have to fix that on most heads that come in. They should all be the same height within .005"-.010" , performance stuff less than that.
Maybe not a deal breaker as stated but not what I like to see.
Grinding stems down to match is another hand slapper/no-no. Cut the seats to the same depth like they should be.
Spring pocket depths vary in height, so that is not a safe datum to compare one to another, that's why some seats take more shims to get the correct installed height for the springs.
I don't know any professional head guy that will use a Serdi (or Rottler) to cut seats, especially the big stuff, most of the guys I know use a vertical mill instead as its much more rigid and produces results easier.
 
CP - you were goin' good.
"I don't know any professional head guy that will use a Serdi (or Rottler) to cut seats, especially the big stuff, most of the guys I know use a vertical mill instead as its much more rigid and produces results easier. "
I have no idea why you'd say that unless you're confused or not near any professional shops. The shop I use has a Serdi 104 seat and guide machine, a Serdi VVR120 valve resurfacer (If you think Ferrea valves are good you should see them after this machine fixes them), and has a Rottler F86A machining center for block work. You can do heads on a vertical mill if you're good with it (Bridgeport, my TCM, etc) but they suck for production work and cannot do the smaller 4-valve stuff and they certainly can't equal the quality.
 
moper said:
CP - you were goin' good.
"I don't know any professional head guy that will use a Serdi (or Rottler) to cut seats, especially the big stuff, most of the guys I know use a vertical mill instead as its much more rigid and produces results easier. "
I have no idea why you'd say that unless you're confused or not near any professional shops. The shop I use has a Serdi 104 seat and guide machine, a Serdi VVR120 valve resurfacer (If you think Ferrea valves are good you should see them after this machine fixes them), and has a Rottler F86A machining center for block work. You can do heads on a vertical mill if you're good with it (Bridgeport, my TCM, etc) but they suck for production work and cannot do the smaller 4-valve stuff and they certainly can't equal the quality.
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Well, you should see my customer list then of Pro's who buy my product to do valve jobs on a vertical mill because they are tired of fighting the specialized machine that can't do the job as well.
And I have customers doing 5mm stem 4 valve heads that way, and customers doing Pro Stock Harley heads with 2.30"+ valves that way.
Pretty sure I'm not confused about that....
 
If you're doing basic Cylinder Head 'valve jobs', for general 'daily-drivers',
'gas' commercial vehicles, light-duty engines and mild street performance,

Speed and 'ease-of-equipment' use takes precedent, providing you have
decent Shop Equipment.

And the one operating the Valve Seat Machine, makes a big difference as well.

Not every 'small-to-medium' sized shop can afford a Serdi, or a Vertical Mill,
or even an accurate Machine Lathe for that matter.

Many don't even have a 'basic' Bridgeport Milling Machine {less the 'J' Head}.

Now a 'performance or 'specialty shop', that is a whole different ball game.

And even then, not everybody can afford a 'Vertical Milling Machine' with computer controls.

jet-690908-cnc-vertical-milling-machine-w-free-kennedy-roller-stand-promo-800x800.jpg
 
Interesting... Who makes it,and how much?.....And how wide and deep is that platform table?.
 
Abodybomber said:
Interesting... Who makes it,and how much?.....And how wide and deep is that platform table?.
Click to expand...

A-Man,

Jet #4VSC............$16,000

Machine Weight.....#2275 lbs.

Table...................9" x 49"

We use this Vertical Mill for our machining of components for
Allison Transmissions for our Contract Work with New York City Transit {Buses}.

We also use it for work on the Diesel Cylinder Heads {Cummins and Detroit Diesel}

$(KGrHqN,!rcFI44BSYfiBSVZ2VVClQ~~60_12.JPG
 
Thanks,for sharing,440Cuda. I see fleet, I see consistent money. Sorry ,to the O.P.
 
Abodybomber said:
Thanks,for sharing,440Cuda. I see fleet, I see consistent money. Sorry ,to the O.P.
Click to expand...

Fleet Work + Volume + Speed = 'Money'

Performance Work + Time {-} Payment from Racer = 'Wait for Money'

I'd rather do '20' Detroit Diesel Cylinder Heads at a time, than
a set of 'Maxed-Out' Big Block Chevy Heads.

I like to feed my family........
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
If you're doing basic Cylinder Head 'valve jobs', for general 'daily-drivers',
'gas' commercial vehicles, light-duty engines and mild street performance,

Speed and 'ease-of-equipment' use takes precedent, providing you have
decent Shop Equipment.

And the one operating the Valve Seat Machine, makes a big difference as well.

Not every 'small-to-medium' sized shop can afford a Serdi, or a Vertical Mill,
or even an accurate Machine Lathe for that matter.

Many don't even have a 'basic' Bridgeport Milling Machine {less the 'J' Head}.

Now a 'performance or 'specialty shop', that is a whole different ball game.

And even then, not everybody can afford a 'Vertical Milling Machine' with computer controls.
Click to expand...

That was merely my point. Basic rebuilder valve jobs are quick, in and out, get it done, consistency is last in line.
And yes, a good operator makes a difference.
Most rebuilder/engine shops won't have a vertical mill, no surprise there. But if I walked into a shop that claimed to do performance work of any kind, and there wasn't a Bridgeport or vertical mill of some sort there, I would have serious doubts of the level of "performance" work they do.
Having a Vertical mill with a DRO is one thing, having a CNC mill is another. You aren't going to do seat work on a CNC mill, that takes a "feel" by hand just like using a Serdi, TCM, Rottler, or any other manual machine. CNC mills are great for consistent production work, and more complicated pieces that take too long to do manually.
I have no doubt lots of guys get good results with their Serdi's, but for many performance shops and Induction specialists, using a vertical mill makes more sense, as it has more versatility and rigidity to it than a dedicated seat/guide machine, and for a considerably amount less money.
 
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