318 Heads: bad valve job?

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CPMotorworks said:
Well, you should see my customer list then of Pro's who buy my product to do valve jobs on a vertical mill because they are tired of fighting the specialized machine that can't do the job as well.
And I have customers doing 5mm stem 4 valve heads that way, and customers doing Pro Stock Harley heads with 2.30"+ valves that way.
Pretty sure I'm not confused about that....
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One of my old instructors still uses his Qwik Way that's almost as old as I am. He does decent work with it and always has. A friend's father does his work on a Bridgeport too. I've run his work before. But I feel a professional shop that is well appointed with top of the line equipment to do all the operations in house, and staffed with professionals who don't struggle with running it is where I'd spend my money. The good seat and guide machines are just well optioned mills anyway but they are designed for quality head work. If a machinist couldn't use them for that I'd be concerned about paying them for anything. The TCM I bought was being used for helicoils and basic guide/spring seat cutting because the Serdi replaced it and was far superior in every way. I can see the cost factor too tho - the TCM was $3500 with probably that much alone in tooling and pilots. The Serdi was $27K with pilots and tooling and it was 4 yrs old at the time.
 
moper said:
One of my old instructors still uses his Qwik Way that's almost as old as I am. He does decent work with it and always has. A friend's father does his work on a Bridgeport too. I've run his work before. But I feel a professional shop that is well appointed with top of the line equipment to do all the operations in house, and staffed with professionals who don't struggle with running it is where I'd spend my money. The good seat and guide machines are just well optioned mills anyway but they are designed for quality head work. If a machinist couldn't use them for that I'd be concerned about paying them for anything. The TCM I bought was being used for helicoils and basic guide/spring seat cutting because the Serdi replaced it and was far superior in every way. I can see the cost factor too tho - the TCM was $3500 with probably that much alone in tooling and pilots. The Serdi was $27K with pilots and tooling and it was 4 yrs old at the time.
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When you compare the spindle/Quill on a Bridgeport to a S&G machine, you start to see why guys use a vertical mill. Top of the line is a perception, using one is reality. I have the opposite view I guess, as a well optioned Bridgeport is a very accurate machine, and is far more capable than a seat machine. I have yet to see a Serdi surface a head or intake after it does a valve job.
You may have concerns about ones ability to run a seat and guide machine, but these guys are no dummies. When you have limited knowledge on how to check or reference things, your quality suffers, and you end up with results like what the OP is concerned about.
 
Again, Machine Work all depends upon the application.

As for Valve Guide & Seat Machines,

Back in the day it was the 'Winona PH-2000' that most of the performance shops
were going with.

'Specialty Shops' who were banging out Cylinder Heads like McDonald's sends out
hamburgers, it was 'primarily' the 'Tobin-Arp VGS'.

As for the 'standard shop', many went with the 'Kwik-Way #020', which was lighter than
the 'above' mentioned Valve Guide & Seat Machines, but was good for general machine
work.

A 'Bridgeport Milling Machine' with a 'J-Head' is a must for performance shops, but
for general work, it takes too long to set up, unless you have a modified base
to mount the cylinder head.

The 'Peterson Machine' started to make a play in the early 1980's, and was a good piece
of equipment, especially if you were doing 'Heavy-Duty Work' and 'Diesel Heads'.
 
69 Cuda 440 said:
Alex,

273 Intake Valve {1.78" Head Diameter} length = 4.981"




273 Exhaust Valve {1.50" Head Diameter} length = 5.003"

273-318-exhaust-valve-mopar.jpg
Click to expand...


Appearently those are exactly the pieces I've got here!
0.025" variation from intake to exaust, that seems to be what I have on my heads.
Getting anxious to to remeasure everything and be done with this headache.

I´ve beem taking a look at spring shims, and there seems to be a "pattern" on thichnesses, 0.015", 0.030 and 0.060".

IF the need to use shims gets confirmed, I'll have to have my heads reground...
 
66fs said:
Brake fluid is expensive and corrosive. I usually use kerosene or diesel fuel and maybe a little automatic transmission fluid for color. I mean't so you could check the seal on the valves with the seats without taking the heads apart. It is a rough check but works pretty good.
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As my heads are out of the engine and unpainted, is that a problem?
Brake fluid will corrode the metal and or maybe seals as well?
D*mn!

I got brake fluid very cheap here, thats why I used it.
Lets see what I find first, but I think I'll run 69 Cuda 440's tip, alcohol and red dye, as thats easier to run into.

Considering my heads will be set apart for a while, should I coat them with something?
WD40 maybe?
It is pretty humid down here...

Thanks!
 
Brake fluid tends to rust any bare iron it touches because it retains water. Alcohol evaporates cleanly. You can use food coloring and rubbing alcohol, or I use windshield washer fluid... just wipe it up good when you're done and no problems.
 
Alex,, you can coat the Cylinder Heads with 'Marvel Mystery Oil', as that
lubricant is 'magic' and will not dry out the valve seals.

Just coat the components and head surface, and bag with plastic.
 
Marvel Mystery Oil, I've seen that name "pop" on threads quite a bit.

It is not available down here in Brazil...

So I take WD40 is not a good idea?
 
"Top of the line is a perception, using one is reality"
I share this view along with the mass rebuilder quality noted earlier. I believe you are looking through the eyes of a smaller volume shop where less volume and less cash flow mandates flexibility because quality control is limited to one or two employees. I'm curious what volume these shops that use the millers do.
As an example - I have a small horse farm. I own a modern compact tractor. It can do 95% of everything a larger one can and was 1/2 the initial cost. But that cost has a cost of it's own: While it can do everything I need it to and just as well as a larger machine, it can't do it as well in as short of a time as they can. My time has less cash value and the quality of the end product is entirely mine. I can take 1/2 a day to mow my open spaces neatly with only 27hp and a 48" bushhog. So a smaller, less powerful, more manual tractor is fine. So my standard of perfection is reached. The for-profit larger dairy farm down the road has a dfferent standard when they have to cut their fields.
 
moper said:
"Top of the line is a perception, using one is reality"
I share this view along with the mass rebuilder quality noted earlier. I believe you are looking through the eyes of a smaller volume shop where less volume and less cash flow mandates flexibility because quality control is limited to one or two employees. I'm curious what volume these shops that use the millers do.
As an example - I have a small horse farm. I own a modern compact tractor. It can do 95% of everything a larger one can and was 1/2 the initial cost. But that cost has a cost of it's own: While it can do everything I need it to and just as well as a larger machine, it can't do it as well in as short of a time as they can. My time has less cash value and the quality of the end product is entirely mine. I can take 1/2 a day to mow my open spaces neatly with only 27hp and a 48" bushhog. So a smaller, less powerful, more manual tractor is fine. So my standard of perfection is reached. The for-profit larger dairy farm down the road has a dfferent standard when they have to cut their fields.
Click to expand...

I am looking thru the eyes of less volume, higher quality/rate, and that's what I stated when I said the Professional head guys I know use a vertical mill, not a rebuilder shop.
And believe me, its not a matter of cash flow, as it is the money spent vs the return in quality.
They are after the higher quality, take a little more time, charge more per job, deal with less headache to achieve the results they are after.
Volume- I have one customer that has had his fixture the longest and has had just about any high end head you can imagine on it. He's had over 2500 sets of heads across it in the last 4 years. One man operation.
No doubt its not the setup for everyone, but it does work rather well.
 
Alex "Berkowitz";1970177724 said:
Hi guys.

I´ve just picked my heads back from the machine shop, went checking it and found some "odd" stuff.

First: putting a straight edge on the top of the stems, all exaust valve tips are higher than intakes. The difference is around 0,039".

As I got the heads assembled, I measured the instaled valve height from the TOP of the retainers to the spring seats.

On one of the heads, 6 valves were at 1,7716", 1 at 1,7815" and 1 at 1,8012".
On the other head, there were also 6 at 1,7716", one at 1,7618" and one at 1,7815".

The difference at the retainers seems to be small, but at the tips, a bit too high.

Oh, I'm running Edelbrocks 5877 springs, wich should have a installed height of 1,65".
I don't believe the retainers are 0,12" thick, are they?


This is the first time I'm assembling an engine, and I don't really know what I should check next.

So, should ALL the valve stem tips be at the same height?
If they should, considering the mentioned heights at the retainers, what would be the right move?
Grinding the tips?

And about the valve height?
Is it ok, or should I run shims?

Just to mention, the cam is a SUM-K6901, 218°/228° @0.050", and .441" lift both intake and exaust.

Thanks!

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inkjunkie said:
What is this thread about again??
Click to expand...

CPMotorworks said:
The different qualities of valve jobs and a good discussion on ways to achieve different/same results.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.....don't think so. Op asked about valve heights, grinding the tips and shims....Don't see anywhere in his initial post anything about what stones/machine or process is better. I don't see how a discussion about which piece of equipment is "better" has ANYTHING to with the OP simple questions....Point is, while the discussion about machinery is interesting how is it relevant to "should I grind the tips?"....
 
In Junkie,,,,,

You must 'expand' your mind.....

If a girl at a bar asks you if you're 'Big',

Do you just say yes, or do you expand on that.......
 
Ink, good point. Here is what I can conclude from all of the excellent discussion. The OP has a variance of 0.025 in valve stem tip height. The recommended tolerances for his application seems to be 0.005 - 0.015. It is not recommended to grind the top of the valve stems to get them within specification. The use of spring shims shouldn't be needed if he has the seats ground properly. The OP suspects that his caliper to measure the spring heights is not accurate and he is waiting for a new one to arrive in the mail. The OP lives where he has only one machine shop in the area so he is limited in finding another shop with a Serdi, Bridgeport, Jet, etc equipment. Simple, no?I have learned a lot more about headwork that I didn't know before. Thanks to all involved in the discussion.
 
Hay if yall wanna continue the argument about machine work, I might wanna jump in. How bout one of yall makin another thread for it? I don't really think that's helping the OP any longer.
 
inkjunkie said:
Hmmm.....don't think so. Op asked about valve heights, grinding the tips and shims....Don't see anywhere in his initial post anything about what stones/machine or process is better. I don't see how a discussion about which piece of equipment is "better" has ANYTHING to with the OP simple questions....Point is, while the discussion about machinery is interesting how is it relevant to "should I grind the tips?"....
Click to expand...


Alex has what he thinks is an issue with his freshly done heads.
He's correct, he does.
Why does he have an issue like this?
Because of the process used.
Suggesting to grind valves to non uniform length is sloppy work.
The valve are different lengths, yes, but the difference should be on the valve face side, not the tip side.
There is a reason the exhaust margin is thicker than the intake.
If Alex (and others) are more educated on how the process works, machines are used, and the results one should see, they are better informed and not lost or in the dark about what happened.
Some people are convinced there is only one way to do things, others realize thinking outside the box opens up new possibilities.

I for one have learned that there are at least 2, if not 3, people here that are willing to discuss things with reason, even if it goes against what they think, and one of them owns a horse farm! I appreciate a good discussion, so Thank you.
 
Alex told us he was from Blumenau, Brazil

That is on the East Coast of Brazil, about '400 Miles' South of Sao Paolo.

And the 'selection' of Machine Shops in his area is limited to the 'non-performance' types
that primarily do 4-Cylinder and V-6 Cylinder Head Work.

If that is all that is available, then that is all he can get.

It's not like he has a wide choice.......to pick and choose.

Just how many people are running 1972 Scamps with a 318 High Performance
Engine in Blumenau, Brazil.
 
Sorry Rob.
To the OP - my apologies if you felt the post went a direction that wasn't helping. IMO - the heads are not done properly and cutting the stems isn't the right move. It might be usable for a stock application - generally lifters have enough travel to accomodate such variences, but the ability to work with crap doesn't make it right or worthy of cash outlay. It looks like typical of a mass rebuilder level of qualty that is by design supposed to get out of the warranty period and sometimes they actually do.

By the way - my guess is aside from the poor workmanship they used the truck exh valve that should run with the valve rotators. The passenger car valve for a "302" head in Sealed Power is a V2141 - 1.50" dia head, 4.982 overall length. The truck valve could be the V2141 or Sealed power V2154 - 1.50" dia head, 4.994 overall length. If these heads had the rotators they would have 2 groove keepers and a longer valve. If not they should be 4 groove and the same length valve as the intake. I think if you stack up the .012" in length difference and the .020 or so difference in the retainer thickness from the rotator to the std retainer you'll be close to how far it's off.
 
67Dart273 said:
Step

1.....grind seats which moves the valve stems up higher as the seat "sinks."

2----face the stems down to proper installed height

3---valve retainers will ALSO now install "too high," so install shims below springs to shim them to proper height.

As Rob says, Mopar valve height is especially critical because factory rockers are not adjustable.
Click to expand...

I'll add a step, Make sure the exh valve sits prouder in the chamber than the int valve.
 
Hey guys, sorry it took me so long to get back!
My tools took too long to get here.

So, I remeasured everything, and I'm not very happy.

This is going to be a long one, sorry for that.



Purple: lowest installed spring (per head)
Orange: lowest valve stem tip (per head)

Green: highest installed spring (per head)
Blue: highest valve stem tip (per head)


Driver's side head:
Cilinder n1:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,636"; Stem Tip Height: 1,878"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,670"; Stem Tip Height: 1,915"

Cilinder n3:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,640"; Stem Tip Height: 1,883"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,645"; Stem Tip Height: 1,879"

Cilinder n5:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,647"; Stem Tip Height: 1,886"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,631"; Stem Tip Height: 1,895"

Cilinder n7:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,630"; Stem Tip Height: 1,874"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,664"; Stem Tip Height: 1,907"

Largest Spring Height Difference: 0,040"
Largest Stem Tip Height Difference: 0,041"

Passenger's Side Head:

Cilinder n2:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,644"; Stem Tip Height: 1,902"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,671"; Stem Tip Height: 1,901"

Cilinder n4:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,645"; Stem Tip Height: 1,898"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,650"; Stem Tip Height: 1,906"

Cilinder n6:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,647"; Stem Tip Height: 1,908"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,669"; Stem Tip Height: 1,914"

Cilinder n8:
Intake: Spring Height: 1,649"; Stem Tip Height: 1,896"
Exaust: Spring Height: 1,665"; Stem Tip Height: 1,911"

Largest Spring Height Difference: 0,027"
Largest Stem Tip Height Difference: 0,018"

Variation Considering Both Heads:
Springs: 0,041"
Stem Tips: 0,041"


"Specs":

Brazillian 318's Shop Manual states installed spring height should stay between 1,614" and 1,693" (I didn't have this infformation when I started the thread), BUT Edelbrock's 5877 springs specs put it at 1,65".
Brazillian manual states if installed height is superior to specs, shims should be used, thats the "common sense" ok. It also states spring pockets should be taken as reference to this measurement (thats what the manual said, not me)
BUT, what to do when installed height is inferior? According to brazillian's shop manual they're all within tolerances, but not according to the spring manufacturer. I believe, as the springs are non stock, spring manufacturer specs are the ones to be followed, right?
What to do in this case, regrind seats? And what about valve train geometry and all that?
Is it a big of a deal springs being more compressed than the manufacturer sugested?
And about the variation between heights?

Brazillians shop manual doesn't specifies tolerances for stem tip height, it refers to a factory "graduated tool" that I don't believe is available. In case any tip is above tolerances, it should be ground to specs. According to folks here on FABO, tolerances are in the range of 0,025".

Considering all that, what would be the proper course of action?
Most of my springs are under the recomended installed height, a few are above it.
My seats have already been ground, should I grind them even more?
IF so, whats the right way? Determining wich one is deeper in the chamber, setting spring installed height for that one an than matching the others?

Wouldn't I be running the risk os getting the stems too long on the rockers this way?
Isn't there some kind of "maximum stem height" parameter?
I have absolutelly no idea on the shops equipment, I didn't get to see the machines, and at the time I surelly didn't imagine I would run into all of this.
Oh, I checked valve "heads", and all exhaust valves are prouder in the chamber than the intake ones. I couldn't find a way to measure it, but they were all more or less like in the picture...

High performance 318s in Blumenau...lol.
We do have a few with some extra juice in them, but I wouldn call them high performance. One of the best is basically like I'm doing except for the heads (bored 0,040", 285ap pistons, sum K-6901 camshaft, double chain and sprockets, holley 4777, proform high rise intake, stock heads milled 0,06" with 1.6 roller adjustable rockers, double springs, good port job and 1,88" and 1,60" valves, with full lenght headers).
It is installed in a 1953 Chevy Bel Air...lol.
Chevy V8s are pretty rare down here, there was never a "stock V8 chevy" in Brazil, only Mopars (all A-body and all 318s) and Fords (292 and 302 Galaxie 4 sedan, and 302 Mavericks).
This is the car: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2sS3QzyCWY"]2° Encontro internacional de hot rods da confraria do hot. AIC. - YouTube[/ame]



So...any tips on a game plan?
I was thinking...(remember this is the first time I get involved with rebuilding an engine), guess I should check if any of my valves were ground, than find the deepest valve seat, set installed spring height with that seat, set all other valves based on this one, recheck installed spring heights (to see if any need shims) and than check stem tip heights...
or there is any other way?
Am I missing anything?
Just thinking about the shops excuses...boy thats gonna be "fun".



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After 3 pages you still haven't taken it back and threw your heads at them?

Quit thinking and procrastinating. Get going!

:violent1:
 
Hei poison, come on!

If they did THAT kind of work to start with, what do you think I would get if I just threw my heads back at them?
At most, ground stem tips...

I DO agree with you I'm taking too long to solve this (as I dowith anything I put my hands on), but I need to be sure there IS a problem, WHAT the problem is and HOW to solve it.

Don't many people build theyre own engines down here, the machine shop owner told me himself that this was the second or third time he ever did this job for a "person" and not an engine shop, I don't believe they are used to getting complaints.
 
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