340 to 416 stroker build need advice

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hellride

hellride

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Hi, first time poster here. I would just like to get some advice on my 340 to 416 stroker build for my 1969 dart swinger 4 speed. If anyone has any personal experience with any of the parts, manufacturers, or distributors I like to hear about it. Here are my major concerns. I'm trying to make the most power I can on 91 octane. I've been reading and researching a lot online to find some proven combos, so here's what I'm looking at doing.

340 stock standard bore block
Hughes main stud girdle kit
4" stroker cast or steel crank
H or I beam steel rods
forged pistons
Edelbrock Hughes engines heads or their Iron Ram heads
Edelbrock RPM Air Gap intake
Hughes cam either hydraulic or solid in the 250 to 260 degree duration range at .50" lift.
825cfm Mighty Demon carb
MSD dist and 6AL ignition box

Those are the basics. I have so many questions but I'll try to keep it to a minimum. Here goes:
1. 4" Scat cast or steel crank? Hughes says Scat cast is good to 600hp, so I should be fine.
2. H beam or I beam rods? I hear I beams are only good to 500hp.
3. Edelbrock Hughes prepped heads or their Iron Ram ported heads? I always thought aluminum was better for trying to squeeze the most power out on pump gas, but a fella Dave at Hughes told me the Iron Rams are just as good fully ported for the same money. My concern is on comp ratio. If I went iron, my best comp ratio on pump gas would be around 9.5 to 1, and 10.5 to 1 on alum right? Please feel free to correct me. And more compression means more power right?
4. Big hydraulic cam or big solid cam? Dave at hughes said solid because I told him that this car will be driven only about 1000-2000 miles a year.

Well, that seems about enough for now. Any advice? thanks
 
Hughes has his own way of looking at things. A few things I might question (BTW, Dave doesn't take second opinions well, so be prepared if you go back to him...).

First, have your block sonic tested by a competant guy. Any cylinders that test thinner than .150" on the major thrust should be sleeved, or a new block found.

Second, any cast crank will take 600hp. MP (reboxed Scat), Scat, Eagle.. they all have the same quality and finishing. The Eagle is cheapest at $300 or so from anywhere. They should ALL be carefully measured for taper and corrected as necessary. As for forged, I use Callies Dragonslayers. I've never found one to be off at all in terms of dimension or taper, and they can handle 7-800hp.

Third, you don't need a girdle. Hughes produces and sells his own girdle, so he makes good money off every sale. Your money would be better spent on high quality 2-bolt caps than a girdle on a small block. You do need main studs in any event.

Fourth, in terms of rods, I wouldnt use the cheap I beams available. Some here do, I won't. I've used factory rods redone with good success for budget builds, and they will work to a realistic 500hp or so. If you want piece of mind, Eagle, Scat, and K1 all have H beams that would do fine. All rods should be cycled and checked regardless of who makes them.

Fifth, Iron Rams are a huge money maker for Hughes. He wants you to use them because they will make the power you want, and he gets a great markup. Look at his flow numbers. The 2.02 intake prepped Rams made 240 @.600. He doesnt list the LA version RPM out of the box flow number... but it's [email protected] too. But he makes less off them. The Magnum chamber is a little better than the RPM's. But I'd rather start at 240cfm w/aluminum, than be maxxed out at 240cfm in iron. Head material makes little difference on a buildup when you are starting with a blank sheet of paper. But aluminum is cheaper to port, lighter, and prettier.

Sixth, the compression ratio get's set by the piston choice and head choice, in conjuction with the camshaft choice. In order to determine those, we need to know a bit more about your intentions with this engine. Do you have power brakes? Do you plan to race it? How fast and what type of racing? What altitude does the car live in? Do you want to wrench on it or close the hood except for cleaning? What gearing in the rear?

Seventh, Demon carbs are not my thing. I've wrenched on 4, and every one had issues, even the 2 that I unboxed and installed. I use 870vacuum secondary Street Avenger Holleys with no issues.
 
Moper is the man on this stuff! I would listen to what he says...i dont really know anything about this combo, and would be interested to hear how it turns out for you...only thing i would tell you though is that i hear alot of bad stuff about msd ignition boxes...the distributors not really, but ive read pages and pages of complaints of how msd boxes crap out, people send them back to msd for fixing, and they come back the same...If i was you id go with either the mp box (chrome) or something from mallory...it seems that the new stuff msd is putting out is junk
 
Agree with Moper, but my 2 cents, if you go half way big o nthe cam, get 10:1 - 11:1 pistons and after bore sizes, milling etc you can ru non pump gast with iron heads. We need more info, but it is the effective compression that is what matters. With head work and not to much cam, depending on deck height etc. 9.5 may be ok for you.

I went with Ross Forged pistons and a forged crank. Very sweet on the balance and I wanted mine a little more bullet proof.

PS I do not have power brakes.. way to much cam in mine for that.

Also what gears, trans etc are you going with and what is the goal, besides just more power?

PS a few oil mods would not hurt either...
 
Moper is right about one thing. Dave is deaf to second guessing or second opinons! Speaking from experience!
 
And have a good local shop balance it. If you buy it balanced it will most likely be a sloppy job.
 
I plan on putting a 3.91 or 3.73 in the existing 8 3/4, along with going through the whole axle - brakes, axles, etc. I want this car to be about as mean as possible for being still called a street car. A couple of questions:

1. No stud girdle? The guys at Hughes made the impression that anything above 500hp or close, it was required on the 2 bolt main.
2. I agree with you guys that they are probably upselling on the iron rams due to markup margins, and I've never had a car with aluminum heads due to budget woes, but now being a little older, wiser, and having a little more bread in my pocket as compared to my high school days, I'd really like to run the EDDY heads as that was always the "holy grail" for making power. Also, I've heard cars that are 9:1 comp and I've heard cars that are 12:1 comp ratio, and the 12:1 always had a nice crackle to the exhaust that I envied. I wouldl ike to come in at 10.5 to 1 with the EDDY heads and still be safe for 91 octane. Here is a link to what Hughes is comparably offering in heads. Hopefully this isn't against the forum rules.
EDDY's
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...cw==&level1=Q3lsaW5kZXIgSGVhZHM=&partid=22132

IRON RAM (I know these are magnum but they have LA style too)
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...aW5kZXIgSGVhZHM=&level2=SXJvbg==&partid=23950

Here are the cams I'm looking at as well:
Hydraulic
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...ZW5naW5lcw==&level1=Q2Ftc2hhZnQ=&partid=21862

Solid
http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/...&level2=RmxhdCBUYXBwZXQsIFNvbGlk&partid=21803

P.S. TTI stepped headers? OR? Clutch recommendations? Thanks - Nate
 
My combo is .030 over 340 block stock main caps with mani and head studs. W2 heads ported by Shady Dell speed shop.Victor W2 or Indy intake. TTI 1 7/8" headers 950HP ProForm carb. CR is 11.2 the pistons are Wiseco's the rods are CAT H beams and the crank is a MP forged crank. The cam is a Racer Brown 570 lift 270 @ .050 installed @ 108. It is in a 69 Dart that weighed 3500 with me in it. 4.30 rear and a 4400 TA convertor. It run consistent 11.0's - 11.1's. It will run on 93 octane fuel if the timing is pulled back to 30*. If you are going to drive much on the street this cam is probably 10* too big for that. That said these 416's do have big block power! Jim
 
As I said, they have every reason to say that. My response would be, why, if it was needed that badly, hasn't there been a market for it until now? These engines were being stroked and hot rodded for 30 years. And making serious power and holding together. The issue at high rpm and loads is not the cap walking, but the center of the cap deflecting, which draws the cap mating surfaces in, ruining the bearing and losing the oil wedge. The fix is not stock caps and a girdle. The fix is a cap with a better material and clamo it more. So steel caps and studs... I've run 500 hp thru stock caps with studs. When the assembly is properly balanced, there is no issue with cap walk. Hughes is simply selling a product. If they made so much power they move the caps, then I stand corrected. But they do nothing special or secret. They just use modern parts and machining. And guys making more power, dont need a girdle. Program caps survive well at 550+hp, and at the 600hp point, really you should be using an R3 block anyway. So no, I do not believe anyone needs a girdle. Maybe caps, and then a better block.

You seem rather stuck on hughes. The prepped heads are $1715. Then you need to replace the springs, maybe retainers and locks depending. Add Hughes' price of $450, and now you're at $2165. A fully CNC ported set from another popular shop runs $2995.00 ready to install. Summit sells the heads for $1432/pr w/free shipping. They will need a performance inspection... mostly for guides. So add $350, plus springs for $200, and we're all done for $1982.00 and that's at my shop's costs, which I'm told are outrageously high. Just a different opinion...
 
ARP main studs is all you will need on the mains for most stroker applications. Like moper said if you need more you really need an aftermarket block. You will need to have the block line honed when switching to the main studs. And take your oil pump to the shop because it will need to be clearanced to run the studs.

I am running 10.3:1 compression on my Eddie headed small block stroker with a custom ground retrofit roller cam 236/242 @ 50 duration and 586/540 lift intake/exhaust. TTI step headers into 2 1/2" exhaust. Holley 750 DP carb.

I went with Stage 2 ported Edelbrocks from Shady Dell Speed milled to 62 cc combustion chambers. I had to upgrade the springs to match the cam and also had to upgrade to 10 degree retainers and locks. The stock Edelbrock retainers and locks are not real beefy parts.

Bottom end is Scat steel crank, Scat I-beam rods, and Keith Black 745 step dish pistons. ARP main studs.

My engine was built as a pump gas street engine with power band between 2,000 and 6,000 rpm. So far very impressed with the torque and top end power.

BottomEnd.jpg


EngineAssembled_shrunk.jpg


StrokerEngine.jpg
 
hellride
just did this exact buildup and im in the fine tuning stage at this point. here is what combo i have and my opinion.

started with a matching numbers 72 340 engine basicly all stock with 91000 miles. tired but ran good.

-had block fully tested. prepped and line honed 30 over
-went with eagle steel crank "5 lbs lighter than stock"
-eagle i beam rods "also lighter than stock"
-custom made diamond pistons forged with a dish for compression "again much lighter"
-clevite bearings thruout
-all arp bolts and studs
-melling h/d oil pump
-stock windage tray had clearance problems "went without but retained"
-comp cams 268h extreme energy k-kit 477/488 lift "should have went bigger" wanted more lope.
-ferrea valves with the comp kits springs and hardware
-stayed with the stock "X" heads for appearance sake 2.02/1.60 valves 74cc chambers with 3 angle valve job and hardened seats.
-elelbrock rpm manifold "painted to blend as factory"
-new just out summitt 750cfm vac secondary electric choke carb "basicly a holley"
-final compression ratio was a 9.3.1 on premium. even at that i had to back some timing out on premium 93. just be carefull if iron closed chamber heads.
-everything balanced and blueprinted by reputable machine and speed shop here in milford, mass. and done right.

thats the build up. one thing i would note and maybe do over again is the forged pistons to maybe hyperutectic. they are a little noisey by nature when cold and even warmed up almost diesel like but faint. just a little picky maybe. i dont race the car so forged was not all that necessary "builders recommendation though" also 2 more things i never considered but encountered.

-motor ran hotter than before so the cooling system was now marginal. the fix was a 3-core radiator rebuild from the stock 2-core coupled with a 180 thermo.

-on a hot start it would not refire until many revolutions on the stock lazy o.e.m starter. fix was a new summitt pro tourque starter and a phenolic 1/2 in carb spacer. both inexpensive fixes but cured it 100 percent.

lastly we are now fine tuning the carb which is a little lean "also causing the heat issue" once this is done it should be very happy and outlast me.

the end result is im very happy. the motor is very tourqey and picks up revs real quick with the lighter rotating assembely. i was amazed how much heavier all the old school parts were compared to modern. we weighed them all. final horsepower i dont know yet but would guess around 400 at the crank. well best of luck and i hope this helped in some way.
 
Go with forged pistons if you plan to rev it past 5,000 rpm. The longer stroke increases piston speed and forged are needed in a performance application.

I went with a Flowkooler water pump and Mr Gasket high flow 160 thermostat with three 1/8" holes drilled in it to prevent air pockets. Stock three row radiator recored. So far runs nice and cool.
 
340 fastback. looks real nice. i wish i was good with entering pics id send you some of mine. i went with the street hemi orange. in any case do your pistons have a little rattle to them when cold (are they forged?) just curious.
 
The engine is fairly quiet when cold, similar to a stock engine. The piston to wall clearance for the forged kb745 was .0045" for a street/strip application so they don't rock much. After it runs for a few minutes it does get quieter but it is not noisy cold. I definitely don't have the noise you are describing.
 
Put me in the same camp as Moper.

500hp doesn't need studs or a girdle. Studs aren't a bad idea, but, not required. There are some stock cast crank 360's cranking out 575+ hp, spinning close to 7500rpm, running around that have nothing but a set of studs in the mains. An R block is a really good idea when going to 600+.

Here's another way to save a buck. Find a set of used Ede's, you'd have to have the guides and valve job checked anyways, so used is a good approach here. Surface and have them ported and you can come in at under 2K ready to bolt on. I have one set that I have about $1600, flow in the 295 range at .600 lift, set up for a .650-.675 roller, and done by a local head porter with a solid reputation. I've bought used Ede's for anywhere from 550-1000 for a pair depending on what they were, ported on the high side.

I wouldn't take what someone says from a company that has something to sell you as gospel. Hughes has some nice products, but, they aren't the only game in town.

Good luck with it
 
Wow, thanks for all the info fellas. Using forums has always been my way to hear both sides of the story rather than just the guy who's selling me something, very useful. I do believe in the knowledge of the guys at Hughes and am willing to buy their products, but I want to be able to exactly what I'm talking about when we are on the phone throwing numbers and money around like it's a Christmas wish list, especially when I'm going to spend upwards of $8000 on this build-up. I don't want to feel like I can't sit down once it's all said and done:bootysha:. That being said I do have some more questions.

Cranks:
Hughes says Eagle cranks are no good? They also say Scat cast is good to 600hp? I guess bottom line is what are some true cast and forged crank hp ratings?

Rods
H or I beams?

Anyone heard of www.gofaststuff.com? Prices are low and I've seen them on Ebay. All they carry is Eagle cranks.

CAMS
Racer brown vs. Hughes? Solid or Hydraulic? Biggest cam with 91 octane?

CARB
750 or 825cfm mighty demon or speed demon or?

CLutch
Who makes a killer clutch/ flywheel setup that will handle 550hp without killing my left leg? Centerforce, Hays, McLeod? I've used Centerforce Dual-Frictions in the past and liked em.

Lastly, now I'm really on the fence about the stud girdle. ANy other opinions? Oh, and the block I have is a standard bore that was honed by the previous owner and is in excellent shape. Are there stock 4.040" bore pistons out there that will work with a stroker kit for 410CI?
Side note: I also have some bare x heads that are nice. I bought them thinking that they were the way to go. Guess I was wrong. Any experience with fully ported x heads? Is it worth the $? Thanks
 
I would sell the x-heads and go with closed chamber Edelbrocks fully ported. Zero deck the pistons and run some 1008 Felpro .039" head gaskets for a tight quench. I would run ARP main studs with the block line honed. It doesn't cost that much and it will keep that bottom end tight. I like the Scat I-beam rods because they are light and my machine shop really liked the way they measured out. And you don't have to clearance the block with those rods. I have heard a lot of good things about K1 cranks. I would go cast steel for what you are trying to do. One advantage to cast is it is lighter which means it will rev a little quicker.

A 4.04" bore is just a .040" 360 bore so pistons will be easy to get. You will have to have a machine shop look those bores over before you order pistons because you want to get the piston to wall clearance correct. It might already be honed too much and need to go 4.060" (.020" over) which is what mine is.

As for cam I had Brian at Indio Motor Machines grind me a custom hydraulic roller for mine. crackedback can give you his contact info:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DH1DRzAVZI

As far as Hughes I don't trust them. That is just my opinion and nothing more. They sell good stuff but you just can't trust everything they say. They don't always look out for the customer's best interest.
 
Heres a track proven combination for ya'..

1. '70 340 block 30 over, line honed and decked.
2. mopar cast 4" crank
3.Eagle sir rods
4.Diamond flattop pistons 10.9 to 1 comp.
5.Edelbrock heads with mild "street" port work.
6.Lunati "voodoo" .533/.552 hyd. cam.
7.Edelbrock air gap intake(port matched).
8.Quick fuel 850 carb.

this combo ran 11.0's @120 in a "street" car,with full interior and through a full exhaust,and cranked out 520 h.p. on the dyno..i would'nt suggest the sirs rod if your going to make this much power or more,my next set of rods when the "new" and improved stroker goes back together is getting billet rods..:-D:-D
 
stroked 340 said:
Heres a track proven combination for ya'..

1. '70 340 block 30 over, line honed and decked.
2. mopar cast 4" crank
3.Eagle sir rods
4.Diamond flattop pistons 10.9 to 1 comp.
5.Edelbrock heads with mild "street" port work.
6.Lunati "voodoo" .533/.552 hyd. cam.
7.Edelbrock air gap intake(port matched).
8.Quick fuel 850 carb.

this combo ran 11.0's @120 in a "street" car,with full interior and through a full exhaust,and cranked out 520 h.p. on the dyno..i would'nt suggest the sirs rod if your going to make this much power or more,my next set of rods when the "new" and improved stroker goes back together is getting billet rods..:-D:-D
Click to expand...

That combo is very similiar to what I have in mind for my Duster with the exception of the heads, rods and crank.
 
I bought my full rotating assembly from Frank at gofaststuff.com

Frank is a good guy and is very knowledgable. My kit included.

Eagle 4340 stroker crank
Eagle H beam rods with arp studs
SRP forged dish pistons with a -16.9 dish .040 over stock
Speed Pro Moly ring set
Clevite Bearings
Rotating Assembly fully balanced

SRP says those pistons are good for a 250 shot of JUICE.

$1800.00 Total Delivered to my door.

The balance was dead on. The SRP pistons had a slight edge on the dish that was easily taken care of with a little sanding to eleviate any detonation problems.

Frank is reliable and does what he says as far as my transaction went.

Hope this helps.
 
Mad Dart said:
I bought my full rotating assembly from Frank at gofaststuff.com

Frank is a good guy and is very knowledgable. My kit included.

Eagle 4340 stroker crank
Eagle H beam rods with arp studs
SRP forged dish pistons with a -16.9 dish .040 over stock
Speed Pro Moly ring set
Clevite Bearings
Rotating Assembly fully balanced

SRP says those pistons are good for a 250 shot of JUICE.

$1800.00 Total Delivered to my door.

The balance was dead on. The SRP pistons had a slight edge on the dish that was easily taken care of with a little sanding to eleviate any detonation problems.

Frank is reliable and does what he says as far as my transaction went.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

Did the block need clearancing for the H beam rods?
 
Yes,

My local machine shop did it, line honed the mains, boring, honing and set up the main stud girdle from hughes. They did the whole block set up and assembled the bottom end for me. File fit the rings etc. They shaved the top of the main caps so the girdle set flat with no shims needed.
 
First of all welcome to our community.
Next let me get my soapbox taken care of:
When you are considering the compression ratio question you need to be paying attention to the Dynamic Compression Ratio for this is all the fuel of your choice will see. There is a post “compression vs octane” on this forum with lots of information in it. Go on line and download Pat Kelly’s DCR calculator This will aid in the calcs.
As much as I like the desktop Dyno, because of the limited amount of information you can input, it has to be taken with a grain of salt. However it’s very good to see how the changing of individual components, such as a cam, affects the build as a whole.

As to the build there are a few manufacturers that offer stroker kits you might want to consider. Mancini is the one I have chosen. The folks there are more than willing to tailor the kit to my requirements. If you choose to get them to balance it have your machine shop check all their work. But because of their volume purchasing the kit will save you money.

As far as cams go I encourage you to consider the comp cams Extreme energy High lift series of cams.
They take advantage of the larger MoPar lifter diameter. The XE275HL or the XE285HL may suit you well, I chose the 285.

As far as heads go I can’t say enough about Ryan at Shady Dell. He can get more flow out of a set of Edelbrock heads then a stock set of W-2 heads.

Now to the subject of Hughes:
I have tried to have civil conversations with their people, as a design engineer I require specific answers to very specific questions. All they were concerned with was pushing their products and would not give me the information to properly compare their products to the rest of the industry. They think ‘much more of themselves then they aught’. As it happens I may make some small purchases from them, but I will not use them as a reference source because of their bias.

Hope this helps
Andrew
 
I have a 340 block that has been bored .40 over and I am having a hard time locating forged pistons at the bore and pin height for the stoker. Any suggestions for complete rotating kits or pistons themselves?
 
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