360 head trip

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Thanks for the info!

Have you tried putting the camera in macro mode? It is the button with the little flower.
 
what valve angles would you suggest for for a .500 lift cam after lash? at this point would you gain much with a 2.02 valve and bigger bowl over the 1.88? i wonder about the bigger valve shrouding and and slowing air speeds. not an expert by no means just wondering thanks.
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I'm porting the same head as Justin, and was determined to cut in a 2.02 valve.

The 2.02 changes the hole characteristic of the port. above 250-260 cfm the air flow quality go to hell in a hand basket!!!

Been porting on these head for 2 years now................still not happy with them.

If your going bigger, go with a 1.94 Valve, it give you room to port with out finding water and creating turbulence!!!!!

O and the only thing a flow bench does for you..........IS KEEP YOU UP ALL NIGHT, TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU:D
 
Cudafever said:
I'm porting the same head as Justin, and was determined to cut in a 2.02 valve.

The 2.02 changes the hole characteristic of the port. above 250-260 cfm the air flow quality go to hell in a hand basket!!!

Been porting on these head for 2 years now................still not happy with them.

If your going bigger, go with a 1.94 Valve, it give you room to port with out finding water and creating turbulence!!!!!

O and the only thing a flow bench does for you..........IS KEEP YOU UP ALL NIGHT, TRYING TO MAKE IT WORK FOR YOU:D
Click to expand...


Yes indeed, but the wife makes me stop since I set it up in the spare/band room for easy access..LOL

I've been able to get over 270 cfm out of my 2.02 j heads, It does take widening the runner and raising the roof to keep the air speed in check.
At the point Im at now with the J's, it would take going into/through the push rod wall and raising the roof even more to lower fps to flow more beyond .530-.550
What port volume do you have again?
My J's are at 186cc, just give an idea of how much bigger they had to get.
 
I'm getting this thread off track here, but...


From 165-200.cc
Trying to get a port in the 165-170 cc to flow in the 255-260cfm range.

keep in mind these are epoxy filled. trying to get ride of all the dead spots and not go turbulent.

I have had the stock port(read no epoxy and a 2.02 valve)go 260 but then had to play with all the dead air on the floor,....yeah it don't like It!

fill the floor, raise the port entrance, widen ssr, raise roof and then fill in apex of the short turn for a better radius for the air to turn on ......and now it to "small." csa......
Over and over and over again:violent1:
 
I decided to crudely remove the ski jump on the valve, then a laid the straight wall/ssr back a tinge more and smoothed the sharp edges after the seat 'chamber side'

This picked up the lower lift some but a few cfm lost at the top due to turbulence at the top of the ssr: *these heads still need a valve job too*



-LIFT------------CFM
--------stock---bowl/ssr---guide/roof kink----valve mod/ssr/chamber trans
.100------55------56----+1-----55.3-----------------58--+3
.200------109-----111--+2-----111----+2-----------125--+16
.300------169-----176--+7-----176----+7-----------178--+9
.350------193-----198--+6-----198----+6-----------199--+6
.400------206-----213--+7-----213----+7-----------215--+9
.450------213-----221--+8-----224----+11----------236--+23
.500------208-----230--+22---235.3--+27.3--------237.4-+29.4
.550------204-----225--+21---240.7--+36.7--------235---+31 but lost 5cfm
.600------***-----***--***---243.2---+43----------235--same but lost 8cfm at this lift
Gains based on stock flow*
So in the total flow aspect I lost 6 cfm from the previous work BUT put the peak at lower/more usable street lift.

This wears my patience because I really just want to do the whole port already to my liking and be done with , but it's teeter teeter and check.

Next week I'll have the seat done, but the question is...do I wait to see the improvement the vj makes on the work done as to get a more accurate picture? or do I just keep moving along with improvements and giving the results?
What do you guys think?
 

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I would do the valve job first, as it will affect the ssr turn shaping.
 
What's ssr stand for? ;)

Justin, please do pictures both ways, before and after VJ, would be even more bad *** if you had a seat grinder and did one, two, three, etc valve jobs to see what the diff was at low lift. But hey, the sleepy worn out guy in Alaska just wants too much sometimes, LOL.
 
I imagine the ssr is the short=side radius, ill assume that it is the short side going into the bowl from the floor of the port. sometimes know as the waterfall. I used to do some porting back in the day for a guy down in fl. Some tricks; widen the waterfall and have it very consistantly smoothed radius. Also, do not concentrate on the pushrod side of the valve guide boss too much. the other side produces swirl and turbulence and if you make each side, similar flowed troughs, they somewhat cancel each other out. widen the pushrod pinch as much as possible or actually install copper tubes in the guide holes and port the pinch 'til they expose the copper, stop there. (expoxie tubes in place). raise port opening as much as practible. shorten guide boss a bunch but leave the "tail" intact. 11/32 stem chevy valves, at .100 over length at exactly 2.00 diameter (1.94 work good in a 318 bore). pocket of bowl opening should be at 1.80- max diameter min. 1.75
with 2" valve. 3 angle valve jos with 45 degree seats. 5 angle if you can afford it.
later 360 heads have one "bad port" that you cannot make to match the others due to a bolt location creating a different shape to accomadate it. cant remember the earlier's X or J 'd design on this. as a rule of thumb with the small block, the bigger you go the better it will flow (within reason and keeping a few exceptions in mind).
you can get rid of the valve cover bolt boss that protrudes onto the port opening as long as you fill it up after (epoxy etc) and remember to use short bolts in that location.
 
omahamoparguy said:
I imagine the ssr is the short=side radius, ill assume that it is the short side going into the bowl from the floor of the port. sometimes know as the waterfall. I used to do some porting back in the day for a guy down in fl. Some tricks; widen the waterfall and have it very consistantly smoothed radius. Also, do not concentrate on the pushrod side of the valve guide boss too much. the other side produces swirl and turbulence and if you make each side, similar flowed troughs, they somewhat cancel each other out. widen the pushrod pinch as much as possible or actually install copper tubes in the guide holes and port the pinch 'til they expose the copper, stop there. (expoxie tubes in place). raise port opening as much as practible. shorten guide boss a bunch but leave the "tail" intact. 11/32 stem chevy valves, at .100 over length at exactly 2.00 diameter (1.94 work good in a 318 bore). pocket of bowl opening should be at 1.80- max diameter min. 1.75
with 2" valve. 3 angle valve jos with 45 degree seats. 5 angle if you can afford it.
later 360 heads have one "bad port" that you cannot make to match the others due to a bolt location creating a different shape to accomadate it. cant remember the earlier's X or J 'd design on this. as a rule of thumb with the small block, the bigger you go the better it will flow (within reason and keeping a few exceptions in mind).
you can get rid of the valve cover bolt boss that protrudes onto the port opening as long as you fill it up after (epoxy etc) and remember to use short bolts in that location.
Click to expand...



Most of these are things I do, but when I go all out...I need to widen the csa more which means the push rod wall all the way to the bowl 'after the straight wall is maxed or maxed enough for me....the widening slows the air speed down, as does the roof raising which also gives a straighter shot at the bowl.
Yes indeed when it comes to big flow and sbm heads, bigger ports is where you end up.lol
*That one port you mention is the one with the lower/recessed head bolt boss, those I go through the casting just a hair, then use a 'press fit w/epoxy hardened washer to fill..then a grind off just a lil of washers edge that hang into the roof of the port.*
If you check out my other 410 thread there are pics of those heads and that port, if not Ill post some.


I will be doing the whole port, but I am going step by step for those who would want to try this themselves as maybe this will give them direction and idea of increases seen for each mod.
 
I would wait until the valve job is done because the back cut on the stock valve, or the nailhead valve, will change the flow numbers and the character of that flow. I always have the valve job done first because it corrects the angles accross which the air has to turn, locates the valve properly in terms of proximity to the chamber wall and in relation to the valve centerline, and takes care of any leakage and inflating of numbers that can happen with worn guides as the valve is run through the lift motion.
 
moper said:
I would wait until the valve job is done because the back cut on the stock valve, or the nailhead valve, will change the flow numbers and the character of that flow. I always have the valve job done first because it corrects the angles accross which the air has to turn, locates the valve properly in terms of proximity to the chamber wall and in relation to the valve centerline, and takes care of any leakage and inflating of numbers that can happen with worn guides as the valve is run through the lift motion.
Click to expand...

I put clay around the valve/guide on worn stuff just for that 2-4 cfm leak
 
The clay will help.. The valve opening straight and the seat angles being cut concentric will help more, especially at lifts under .300.
 
Not to change up the topic but....has anybody tried those new cheap (relative term)
flow benches? You know the ones that interface with your laptop (or whtever) and use the shop-vac (must be 5 HP shopvac minimum). I was watching the vid and it seems like a pretty sweet deal for the home user, supposedly it's very accurate.
 
omahamoparguy said:
Not to change up the topic but....has anybody tried those new cheap (relative term)
flow benches? You know the ones that interface with your laptop (or whtever) and use the shop-vac (must be 5 HP shopvac minimum). I was watching the vid and it seems like a pretty sweet deal for the home user, supposedly it's very accurate.
Click to expand...

That's what Justin has and it was REALLY close to a superflow bench for rated numbers on the same day. We used a HD shop vac at my house, worked well.

Justin, I'd bet those number you got at the (Valve mod, SSR, Chamber) would be real close to the one my heads got with a good VJ. Think mine went static at .450, right, then held steady at that rate through .550
 
crackedback said:
That's what Justin has and it was REALLY close to a superflow bench for rated numbers on the same day. We used a HD shop vac at my house, worked well.
Click to expand...

It was neat to see the flow diff from here at the beach @564ft elevation to sea level or below with dry desert/thin air.
the air will show diff numbers on the same bench, like how at home I get 277 cfm out of a port that in Indio only showed only 273-274cfm on the same bench, then reaffirmed the numbers on brians.

I honestly was sweating it cause if the superflow didnt show the same...it would seemingly make me out a liar, which Im not...and then I would have go and correct all the posted info...plus I would have wasted $1300.






Justin, I'd bet those number you got at the (Valve mod, SSR, Chamber) would be real close to the one my heads got with a good VJ. Think mine went static at .450, right, then held steady at that rate through .550
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Yep.
These seem like they will hold on and keep gaining in the upper lift too.
Really...if you running on the street and relly driving the car 'with whats considered a street cam', anything over .550 is out of use/reach.

Now to ramble some...
I think if someone wants massive numbers at over .550...they need to go buy some real race heads, like W series, INDY 360-1, brodix [not the brodix entry level crap either]

Personally....I dont want to run around on the street with much more than a .550 cam, I dont want to spend $1000 on a cam/lifer/springs and I dont want to have to pull springs off and check/change them regularly. I have always liked the idea of maximizing what you have while keeping it as reliable and less involved maintenance wise there after as possible....however I do recognize the reality of what it takes to satisfy a power particular goal..

Now 1/4 or race cars, tear down, buying parts, experimenting at a price...all comes with the territory.

bla bla bla, right? LOL
 
[/QUOTE]Well valve jobs is something I dont do and farm out to others.

Typically a 70/45/30 3 angle would work nice, but there are some who use 5 angles.
The top cut some do 'chamber side' would make a nice radius transition from the seat angle to the chamber but requires loweering/sinking the valve job some...[/QUOTE]

The Direct Connection Manual said to use a 70/45/15 degree 3 angle valve job on small block heads. They also say not to sink the valves past what is needed to get a good seat, centered on the valve face. 70 degrees was too much for my seat grinder and would "Bust" stones so I backed off to a 60 degree bottom cut. This worked very good for me, but I had a good teacher. It's nice to see you doing this in stages so people can see what they may be up for, and the benefits derived. Thanks...
 
Well valve jobs is something I dont do and farm out to others.

Typically a 70/45/30 3 angle would work nice, but there are some who use 5 angles.
The top cut some do 'chamber side' would make a nice radius transition from the seat angle to the chamber but requires loweering/sinking the valve job some...[/QUOTE]

The Direct Connection Manual said to use a 70/45/15 degree 3 angle valve job on small block heads. They also say not to sink the valves past what is needed to get a good seat, centered on the valve face. 70 degrees was too much for my seat grinder and would "Bust" stones so I backed off to a 60 degree bottom cut. This worked very good for me, but I had a good teacher. It's nice to see you doing this in stages so people can see what they may be up for, and the benefits derived. Thanks...[/QUOTE]

If you us a bounce spring, your stone bill will be a lot less and still cut a 75* cut. I us a bounce spring with all cuts.
Super light cut with a bounce spring and it will survive. Do it all the time.

with out a bounce spring, stone gone in a blink of an eye.:mad:

The top cut, I'm kinda on the fence......
Up to 15* per cut the air will hold on. more then that and the air will jump. so 45*seat -15=30....not 15.

Now you need a good .100+ top cut to keep the air smooth going to the chamber and with a fresh seat that keep it up like chry recamends, you can't get it .100+ with a 30* SOOO, using a 15* cut would make a much Wider top cut. with out sinking the vavle.

Every time i make my top cut 15* it mess with upper lift flow.........mybe it just the way i port the head:dontknow:
 
I was looking at stone setups today...

Gonna drop a head at the shop today, can't decide if I want to also have a nail head cut down to the same seat so I can switch them-tulip back cut against nail head back cut.
I dont know....they are gonna want to do guides as well...

back to looking at stone setups..
 
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