360 timing

Discussion in 'Mopar Performance Issues' started by ted0161, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    if my timing says it should be 36-38 degrees at 4000rpm
    how do i set that?
    years ago i set the timing on a 318 with a timing light but i thought that was at idle.
    can't remember. what is the procedure for setting the timing on a 1977 360 to be 36-38 degrees at 4000rpm. it also talks about valve lash .022 int. and .026 exhaust.
    i thought these engines had hydraulic lifters and the valves didn't need to be "set".
    ?? thanks.
     
  2. lil red

    lil red Well-Known Member

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    I tend to set my 360 at idle using a vacuum gage (and smoothest idle) to get the best reading , then check it at full advance. I have 268 MP cam and it runs best at about 15 Deg initial , and all in at 3000 rpm it reads 34 deg total timing which is probably as high as I wish to go.
    I use timing tape to read the total timing, or use a dial back timing light

    I use adjustable rocker arms, and set my preload on the hydraulic lifters around .020/.025 thou or so, but with the factory rocker arms and proper length pushrods the preload should be set when the rail is bolted down

    a little bit of 2 cents, not that I know a lot...... learning myself with a lot of help from fabo members
     
  3. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. FABO Gold Member Technical Editor

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    Is this a street car? If it is, just set the initial timing at idle to where it runs best and forget it. Probably end up around 20* or so give or take.
     
  4. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    i haven't had my valve covers off yet so I have no idea what is under there.
    --paper says: 192 Z casting heads, light chamber work to unshrouded valves from factory with guides and studs. 2.02-1.6 S.S. under cut manley severe duty valves
    compression 13:1. also says gas or methanol. 200 dome forged trw pistons with moly rings.
    full floating rods bushed with ARP bolts. ultradyne 252/261 @ .500 .560/570 lift standard lash at .026
    balanced assembly. any comments on this? it also has a carter competion series 4 barrel carb. i am sure it could use a little tweaking also. starts and runs lopes alot!
    sometimes it stays running after initial start up sometimes i have to start it 2 or 3 times.
    a slight hesitation or bog when accelerating. i am hoping that proper timing setting and carb setting will eliminate this. but i don't want to make it worse by screwing with it before I know the exact procedure. because its pretty awesome the way it is. by the way it is in a 1974 dart swinger.
     
  5. TrailBeast

    TrailBeast Slightly Twisted Member

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    Idle timing is still set with a light or guage (probably a light unless you read up on doing it with a vac guage.) Total or "All in" timing is usually set by limiting the advance weights in the distributor so it does not go way past your desired total timing when you set your base timing advanced as far as these engines like it to be. Generally, you want the timing advanced as much as possible without the engine kicking back against the starter when the engine is at max normal temps. Then you want to find out what it takes to limit the total to your desired "All in". After all this, you reconnect your vac advance (if you use one) and you may also have to adjust that to eliminate mid throttle pinging, and even sometimes for maximum travel or when it starts coming in. Under light throttle conditions you could actually end up somewhere around 50 degrees total. This is when the best fuel economy happens.(light throttle and tons of total advance)
     
  6. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    thanks, it still seems a little daunting. My best bet is to try to find somebody local to give me a hand. thanks for the advice. not a street car, 318 dart that somebody through a hopped up 360 in it with a rebuilt TF6. just looking to cruise it.
    but I want it running as good as possible.
     
  7. crackedback

    crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    There are a bazillion threads regarding setting timing.

    Doing it using the total method will result in you being VERY unhappy.
     
  8. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    yes, it seems there are many different methods. I don't want to be VERY unhappy.
    i am going to find out where it is this weekend with the timing light and go from there.
    any tips on adjusting the carb. it looks as though there are two adjustment screws on the front.
     
  9. crackedback

    crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    With that camshaft.

    18-24 idle timing around 900-1000 rpm

    ~34-36 total all in at 2500ish.

    It will take some work to get the timing profile right. Mopar distributors can and are more difficult to adjust than MSD units. You will not get a stock mopar distributor to work well out of the box.

    Get the timing sorted out FIRST! The carb will require much different setting based upon where the initial/idle timing is set.

    That engine definitely isn't pump gas friendly. It's got E-85 written all over it.
     
  10. jbc426

    jbc426 Well-Known Member

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    Are you running a minimum of 100 octane race gas or E-85? With 13 to 1 you are not going to be able to run common pump gas, or you will melt or break something in a hurry due to detonation.

    If you can't figure out how to set the valve lash and basic timing, you are going to either have to watch how to do it on Youtube, get the help of a knowledgeable Technician or study the vast information on this site for a few weeks before you do know how to do it. Then you will need to tune and adjust your carburetor to get the jetting right. That means getting a wide band O2 sensor and gauge installed and then learn how to use that.
     
  11. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    running 93 pump gas in it. On my second tank. Paper work that came with it is from R.A.M. RACING ENGINES. I have an email sent to them i am waiting for a reply.
     
  12. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    where would i get e85 or fuel above 93 octane rating? And should i have this before fiddling with the timing? Paper work states gas or methanol. But doesn't specify what type of gas. Bottom line the fuel might be the issue.
     
  13. 69_340_GTS

    69_340_GTS Well-Known Member

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    Depending on where you live, it may not be available .
     
  14. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    what about the octane booster additives they sell at walmart. I think its called 104+. Will this work to at least check to seé if it is the fuel. E85 is no where near me.
     
  15. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    after doing some research online it appears that you can run pump gas in a high compression engine as long as you keep the rpms low. I am not going to be racing this car. The previous owner just bought this car to resell it. 100 miles in a year. So he was no help.
     
  16. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. FABO Gold Member Technical Editor

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    And this was not in the original post why?
     
  17. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. FABO Gold Member Technical Editor

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    No, not 13:1 you can't. Good luck with that.
     
  18. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod Just another dumbass. FABO Gold Member Technical Editor

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    104+ is a shadow of what it once was. Since the removal of lead, which was the main ingredient to boost octane, it's about useless as tits on a boarhog now. Certainly no way will it support a 13:1 motor. You need straight up race fuel. Leaded 114 octane I would think as a minimum. Probably knockin on the 8 bucks a gallon door.
     
  19. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    lead boosts octane?
     
  20. muddog

    muddog Well-Known Member

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    i just built a .30 over 360 with forged flat top pistons, 360 J heads with 2.02/1.60 valves in there, compression 9.5 to 1 final number according to my machine shop, with a MP Purple shaft 528 solid cam, with the advice of Crackedback on degreeing and timing my final numbers were 18 initial anf 36 total, this little motor hits nicely, listen to these gentleman they know what there talking about, especially Crackedback, hes giving me advice a couple times and been spot on, 13 to 1 motor would seem more of a track friendly motor then Saturday night cruiser, i'd be afraid of it not holding up!!!!
     
  21. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    it sounds like that more all the time. How can i check for sure the áctual compression of this motor? What should it read on individual cylinders? The paper shows 174 hp 362tq at 2500 rpm it climbs from there to 537 hp 462tq at 6100 rpm then 512 hp 413tq at 6550 rpm. It has compression ratio at 13:1
    dynamic compression ratio 9.03
     
  22. crackedback

    crackedback FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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    Compression test. Any reading above about 180-185 will not likely be pump gas friendly.

    If you have a build sheet for the engine, look up the pistons in the engine.
     
  23. 69_340_GTS

    69_340_GTS Well-Known Member

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    Yes, tetraethyl lead was the main thing used to boost octane back in the day. Ever see an old movie where the guy drives up with his fancy car and tells the pump jockey to "fill it with ethyl"? Lead was phased out in the mid-1970s because of its cumulative neurotoxicity and its damaging effect on catalytic converters.
     
  24. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    block 360 ci circle track
    late model block 4-bolt main
    decked,bored,honed,with place aligned hone mains,new cam,rod and main bearings. Timing chain with button,oil pump.
    Pistons:200 dome forged TRW pistons with moly rings
    rods: full floating rods bushed with ARP bolts
    Cam: ultradyne 252/261 @ .500 560/570 lift, standard lash at .026
    Timing: 36-38 degrees total at 4000 rpm
    balanced assembly
    heads: 192 Z casting,light chamber work to unshrouded valves from factory with guides and studs
    2.02 - 1.6 S.S. under cut manley severe duty valves
    now the paper says: THIS ENGINE IS GAS OR METHANOL.
    best power is from 6500-6700 rpm this engine pulls extremely hard out of corners and down straightaway. Best if geared down to keep within rpm range.
    This is what is written on the first paper. The second paper has what appears to be dyno results.
     
  25. ted0161

    ted0161 Well-Known Member

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    justed snapped a water pump bolt. Timing chain cover coming off tomorrow to try get the broken piece out. Want to do a compression test if i have time. Putting on a new water pump because the old one started to have some bearing noise.