360 will not start, any suggestions?

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70DartMike

70DartMike

Too many projects
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The 360 in my Barracuda just won't start, no matter what I do. The starter will turn with the key, but it will not fire. I swapped the intake manifold from an Edelbrock LD4B to an Edelbrock Performer, because the LD4B cracked near the carb. It wouldn't start before I changed it, but I thought changing it definitely wouldn't hurt. I set timing back to TDC, and made sure firing order was correct.

The engine is a 360, date unknown. J heads, Mopar purple cam, Holley double pumper carb, compression and the rest of it unknown.

I have very strong spark at plugs.

I have fuel.

I have swapped parts around, with known good parts, including..

- coil
- ballast resistor
- distributor
- intake manifold (due to crack)

I also tried turning the distributor 180 degrees, but that solved nothing.

The car started and ran when I first bought it, but since then, it just will not start. It has a manual valve body, and I have tried starting in Neutral as well as Park, in case the neutral safety switch has some sort of issue. Not sure if that has anything to do with it not starting though.

Any ideas?
 
I would do a compression check first. The timing chain may have skipped a couple of teeth.
 
Are you sure it has fuel? try priming the carb and see what happens. Also pull a plug to see if it's fouled with excess fuel.
 
ground out the starter relay where neutral safety hooks up , its a simple check since you have spark and fuel.
 
I usually take a little flak for suggesting this, such as the problem isn't electrical, the moter turns over, etc..But I do the simple easy stuff first. Make sure the starter turns over quick enough. I start the check simply by charging the battery and hooking jumpers to it. If it isn't turning over fast enough it will never start no matter how good the condition of the rest of it is. Plus they tend to flood, especially Mopar. Hooking a jumper to another good battery is sometimes just enough to override a sluggish starter, overcome a little resistance say in a corroded connection, or make up for a battery that isn't quite putting out at its capacity. This is simple, cheap, fast, and easy, and it just might work.
 
if there is spark, and the starter is not dragging, then it has to be a fuel problem, whether its lack of or too much
 
WHAT DO the plugs look like?

Let's get to basics

spark (at the right TIME)

fuel (quality fuel, not too much, not too little)

compression

1 Pull the plugs and see if they look wet, fouled. While they are out, run a compression check

We don't know what's been done to the engine, if it ran earlier properly, etc, need more details. Valve adjustment? Bad timing chain?

2 Be CRITICAL of the spark. You can check timing with a good light ON THE STARTER. What does the spark look like? Check it out of the coil. Use a grounded probe at the coil tower. It should be fat, blue, and snap at LEAST 3/8" or more

3 Fuel. ANY chance the fuel is old? If the plugs are not wet, try starting fluid, or use a squirt bottle to shoot a little fuel down the carb

LEARN TO TIME the engine so that you do not have to worry about timeing. There is NO REASON to flip a dist. 180 on an engine that "had run." If you DO flip the dist 180, one way or the other WILL Cause massive flames and blowback through the carb. If this does not happen, either the engine is way out of time (and therefore is not truely 180 off) or else something is wrong with compression, fuel.

Hell, look:: See this:

34nf6l0.jpg


I wanted to test fire this engine. I "static timed" it, and didn't even have a carb on it when I first cranked it, simply squirted a little fuel down the manifold and FIRED it. That's RIGHT no manifolds!!!!
 
I say timing, aka timing chain slipped. get you timing light out and have a buddy turn it over. If the light flashes you have spark. if you cant find the timing mark with the light or it way off......time to pull the timing cover.

Doing a compression check is a good idea, but if the timing has jumped the compression will be LOW due to bad valve timing not compression aka ring and valve seal.
just something to think about.

another way to check the timing chain is to remove the #1 spark plug and ground it so it will spark. then us the handle of a screw driver to block the spark plug hole. NOW when you crank it over look at the spark plug Snap and the sound of the air Woosh out of the cylinder............are they happening at the same time? if not you timing change has slipped.
 
Cudafever said:
I say timing, aka timing chain slipped. get you timing light out and have a buddy turn it over. If the light flashes you have spark. if you cant find the timing mark with the light or it way off......time to pull the timing cover.

Doing a compression check is a good idea, but if the timing has jumped the compression will be LOW due to bad valve timing not compression aka ring and valve seal.
just something to think about.

another way to check the timing chain is to remove the #1 spark plug and ground it so it will spark. then us the handle of a screw driver to block the spark plug hole. NOW when you crank it over look at the spark plug Snap and the sound of the air Woosh out of the cylinder............are they happening at the same time? if not you timing change has slipped.
Click to expand...


if the timing is off via the timing chain slipped I recommend not turning it over anymore until you find out for sure; if the timing is off far enough it has the possiblity to bend valves
 
Go back to the beginning, start with basics: pull drivers side valve cover, rotate engine around to #1TDC, pull distributer to make sure oil pump drive is correctly positioned; slot should point towards front bolt intake manifold, drivers side; if not, use large flat bladed screw driver to rotate drive around till it does, move it only one tooth at a time. Stab the distributer in, lightly snug clamp, use a multi-meter set on continiuty, move distributer till just changes, snug clamp a little more, plug dist. back into harness. Put the cap on (don't forget rotor), #1 lines up with rotor, firing order is 1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2, clock wise. Odd numbers drivers side, 1,3,5,7; even, passenger side 2,4,6,8

Things to think about: is the damper any good, has the outer ring slipped; rock the crank back and forth, watch the rotor, how much does the crank move before the rotor, timing chain shot?

I know this is like remedial, DUH stuff. I've had similar problems, and they seem to straighten themselve's out if you start from the beginning ...........

Good luck!
 
JBurch said:
Go back to the beginning, start with basics: pull drivers side valve cover, rotate engine around to #1TDC, pull distributer to make sure oil pump drive is correctly positioned; slot should point towards front bolt intake manifold, drivers side; if not, use large flat bladed screw driver to rotate drive around till it does, move it only one tooth at a time. Stab the distributer
Click to expand...

the distributor drive gear slot can point to Canada , as long as the rotor is firing the # 1 cylinder at the # 1 terminal on the cap. it does not matter where the oil pump/distributor drive gear slot is.
 
73AbodEE said:
the distributor drive gear can point to Canada , as long as the rotor is firing the # 1 cylinder at the # 1 terminal on the cap. it does not matter where the oil pump drive gear slot is. that is a complete waste of time when getting it up on BTDC
Click to expand...




True enough; why make it hard (harder) on yourself than it has to be.................

I was only attempting to give a known, reliable, point to start........an FSM does not suggest "put it any place you want........."
 
JBurch said:
True enough; why make it hard (harder) on yourself than it has to be.................
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exactly my only point.... why go pulling the distributor and play with the drive gear when there is no need for it. he says he has spark at the plugs and it has already been brought up to TDC.
 
Some more. If you even suspect timing chain problems, and you know what cam you have you can estimate cam position by figuring out the timing event. Look at the specs for the cam, example:

FIRST make SURE the timing mark on the balancer is correct by using a piston stop. If you need destructions, post back You MUST find out if the TDC mark is correct before you do anything else

To check cam timing...............

Refer to the chart below, right out of the 67 shop manual, this shows a 273 2bbl, but refer to whatever cam you have for the proper timing

Notice that the intake opens at 14BTC. Hell you can estimate that with the factory marks. You can LOOK at the 5 and 10 marks on the timing tab and eyeball how far another 5 BTC would be, and if you can't, just transfer the measurement down to the balancer so you can SEE what 15* looks like. Just rotate the engine with a wrench while watching the no1 intake valve. As soon as it starts to move (this is a "rough" measurement) is close enough.

Also, remove the cap, watch the rotor, and move the balancer back and forth with a wrench, watching for rotor movement. If you have more than 10* crank movement with no rotor movement, suspect problems. Yet another check is to pull the fuel pump (small block) Use a light and mirror to have a look. Is it a nylon top sprocket? See any wear, damage? Rotate the enine CCW so the chain slack is on that side. You can stick your finger in there, if they're not to fat, and feel how much slack is in the chain.

So how far WILL this change if a cam drive slips just one tooth? The cam sprocket has 46 teeth, the crank has 23 If you figure how many degrees per tooth, this means that just one tooth on either sprocket off means the crank is off by 15. 65*. Now a car WILL run (poorly) just one tooth off, I don't know about two. But the point is, you are trying to estimate cam timing, and you think it's within 5* then it's probably OK, because it would have to be about 15 1/2* off to be just one tooth off
 

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73AbodEE said:
exactly my only point.... why go pulling the distributor and play with the drive gear when there is no need for it. he says he has spark at the plugs and it has already been brought up to TDC.
Click to expand...



I guess the point I was trying to make....... is that yes you can put the distributer just about any place you want, and it will run(I've done it) with a light on it (a dial back showes this well) when you crank the distributer around to the initial advance you want and it dies , or run's real rough, and the dial back show's 25 degrees at idle and 55 degrees at 2000 rpm, it kinda gives you a feeling that just because it may run with the rotor pointed at the rignt rear tire for #1 don't make it right.

If you're having trouble with something, the easiest course of action is NOT to reinvent the wheel to try to fix it if known, reliable, repeatable, methods already exist.


Just my 2 cents
 
JBurch said:
I guess the point I was trying to make....... is that yes you can put the distributer just about any place you want, and it will run(I've done it) with a light on it (a dial back showes this well) when you crank the distributer around to the initial advance you want and it dies , or run's real rough, and the dial back show's 25 degrees at idle and 55 degrees at 2000 rpm, it kinda gives you a feeling that just because it may run with the rotor pointed at the rignt rear tire for #1 don't make it right.

If you're having trouble with something, the easiest course of action is NOT to reinvent the wheel to try to fix it if known, reliable, repeatable, methods already exist.


Just my 2 cents
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its all good man ...my only point is that it still doesnt matter where you put the distributor, or the drive gear , or the rotor, as long as the #1 plug wire is where it is supposed to be at # 1 on the cap..that is the RIGHT place. its not going to run ANY differently no matter where #1 is on the cap. there is no reinventing the wheel going on here.
 
73AbodEE said:
UUM ,,,ok . it still doesnt matter where you put the distributor, or the drive gear , or the rotor, as long as the #1 plug wire is where it is supposed to be at # 1 on the cap..that is the RIGHT place. there is no reinventing the wheel going on here.
Click to expand...


We can debate this question for ever.........if it works good for you where the sun don't shine....that's fine by me



I guess the real question is...........has Mike got his car going, and what did the problem turn out to be.
 
Dad's old 360 power wagon was doing the same thing, it would crank and crank, with fuel and spark.
The ecm box was weak, I elimanate the factory ecm and changed it over to an external gm hei unit and the truck starts quick and easy.
 
sireland67 said:
Dad's old 360 power wagon was doing the same thing, it would crank and crank, with fuel and spark.
The ecm box was weak, I elimanate the factory ecm and changed it over to an external gm hei unit and the truck starts quick and easy.
Click to expand...


just because the ECU goes bad doesn't mean you have to change to an HEI setup. thats alot of wiring for nothing

simple replace the ECU box and done deal if thats the problem. I can't stand people saying mopar ignitions are junk, but truth be told most ECU boxes are 30+ years old and still running the vehicle!
 
66plyValiant said:
just because the ECU goes bad doesn't mean you have to change to an HEI setup. thats alot of wiring for nothing

simple replace the ECU box and done deal if thats the problem. I can't stand people saying mopar ignitions are junk, but truth be told most ECU boxes are 30+ years old and still running the vehicle!
Click to expand...

GM hei is not alot of wiring, put a jumper on the ballast, unplug the factory connection at the distributor, find a junk yard distributor connector, wire it to the hei module, hook up hot and ground.
Add a simple internal resistance coil in the factory bracket.
You are running without cutting any factory wireing.
For around 50 bucks you have hot spark that any part store has parts for.
 
sireland67 said:
Dad's old 360 power wagon was doing the same thing, it would crank and crank, with fuel and spark.
The ecm box was weak, I elimanate the factory ecm and changed it over to an external gm hei unit and the truck starts quick and easy.
Click to expand...

The hidden truth to this story is that the real problem was the HIGH Resistance in the wires. The GM cap require that a new set be installed.
 
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