360

[PocketAces]

Before you get too giddy, you need to make sure that block hasn't already been bored too much.

If you have the pistons, you can look for numbers stamped on top. For example 030 stamped in the top of a piston would indicate that the engine is bored .030" over stock bore. If you don't have the pistons, you can use a set of calipers to measure the diameter of the top of the bore and compare it to the stock bore size of 4.00". The reason you measure at the top is because the top doesn't wear much because the piston rings don't go all the way up.

Once you have established the bore size then you need to assess how much additional wear the engine has. With experience, you can guesstimate the wear by feeling for how much of a ridge you can feel at the top of the bore. Alternatively, you will need some special tools to actually measure the bore at various points.

If your bore is standard size or up to .030" over it will probably clean up with a re-bore or maybe even just a hone. If it's already bored more than .030" over and has a noticeable ridge then the block might not be worth rebuilding depending on how much wear it has.

Once you've done all this, the next step would be to have it hot tanked and then magnafluxed to check for cracks.

 

[Treblig]

Yes, it is best to drill off of the engine.

I would recommend, getting a bushing that the plug fitsinto from the hardware store, then installing it in the bushing, so you can clamp it tight in the vise without damaging the threads on the pipe plug. Who cares if you damage the threads on the bushing, they're cheap and that way you won't damage the pipe plug threads with the vise jaws while clamping it tightly so it does not move while drilling.


Yes, that's one of my favorite Monty Python skits. When my mom and grandma start bickering/arguing, I just refer to that and say, "I came here for an argument..." And they look at me funny...

Now you're talking!!! I always say "the easiest way is usually the best and cheapest way". I don't care about broken drill bits (especially the little bitty ones) and I don't care about inexpensive plugs!! But I do care about getting sufficient lube to my distributor gear!!!

As for Monty Python...I'll never ever forget the fight between the knight (with no legs or arms) and that guy in the "Holy Graile" movie,.....It was absolutely too mUch!!!!!

PS - NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO SOMETHING THAT MIGHT GIVE YOU GREAT BENEFIT ESPECIALLY IF DOESN'T COST ANYTHING!!!

treblig

 

[66fs]

...What you have is the 3418645 Which was used in the 318 and 360 2 bbl engines which is a pressed fit wrist pin. The heavy duty rod was used in the 340 and 360 4 bbl's and was a full floating wrist pin. ...

The "3418645" rod forging IS the heavy duty rod. Used in 318's and 360,s since about 1972, including 340's. Only 340's used the full floating, bushed ends on the heavy rods. All 360's were the heavy forging using pressed pins, including HP 360's. The early rod forging is 2406782 and is bushed for early 318's and all 273's.

 

[krazykuda]

Before you get too giddy, you need to make sure that block hasn't already been bored too much.

If you have the pistons, you can look for numbers stamped on top. For example 030 stamped in the top of a piston would indicate that the engine is bored .030" over stock bore. If you don't have the pistons, you can use a set of calipers to measure the diameter of the top of the bore and compare it to the stock bore size of 4.00". The reason you measure at the top is because the top doesn't wear much because the piston rings don't go all the way up.

Once you have established the bore size then you need to assess how much additional wear the engine has. With experience, you can guesstimate the wear by feeling for how much of a ridge you can feel at the top of the bore. Alternatively, you will need some special tools to actually measure the bore at various points.

If your bore is standard size or up to .030" over it will probably clean up with a re-bore or maybe even just a hone. If it's already bored more than .030" over and has a noticeable ridge then the block might not be worth rebuilding depending on how much wear it has.

Once you've done all this, the next step would be to have it hot tanked and then magnafluxed to check for cracks.

Yes. Make sure that your block is good. However, 360's are cheap enough if you need another block.

Second, to measure bore wear. The maximum side load on the bore is when the crankshaft is at 90° (the mid-point of the stroke) which means you want to measure at the center of the piston travel down the bore, parallel and perpendicular to the crank axis. That should be where you see maximum wear. It wouldn't hurt to also check it at the top and bottom also parallel and perpendicular to the crank axis.

And yes, a quick measure at the top of the bore will tell you where it started since last machined.

 

[krazykuda]

The "3418645" rod forging IS the heavy duty rod. Used in 318's and 360,s since about 1972, including 340's. Only 340's used the full floating, bushed ends on the heavy rods. All 360's were the heavy forging using pressed pins, including HP 360's. The early rod forging is 2406782 and is bushed for early 318's and all 273's.

Like I expllained, the book had some conflicting information when I read and compared the text, the illustrations and text, and the charts.


They said that the same rod was used in the 360's, 340's and 318's after 72. However the chart says that the 73 340 rod was the 2899495 forging which was floating. They don't list a press fit rod for the 340.

Did the 72 & 73 340's have press fit or floating rods from the factory?


Then the chart says that the 318 used the 340 rod 2899495 in 72 & 73, then changed to the 3418645 (360 press fit) rod in 74.

According to the chart, the 340's only had a floating pin, not a press fit pin. So then how did they use the same rod as the 360?

Then the picture shows the heavy duty rod on top and the "light duty" rod on the bottom. The text underneath states that the heavy duty rod was used in the 340 and 360 4 bbls and the light duty rod was used in the 273, 318, & 360 2 bbl.

The chart does not show a press fit rod for the 273, only floating.


So that leads me to question. Did the 340 have press fit or floating rods in 72 & 73?

 

[MopaR&D]

Thanks for the reply krazykuda... i know before i start moving up the redline with cam, heads, etc. I want to sonic check the block as it was already bored .060" when i got it and if the cylinders check out ok i will go ahead and install aftermarket rods with new bolts. I've put probably 10,000 somewhat hard miles on it including two passes down the strip and it has held up great so far. I just hope if a bolt fails it happens slowly so i can catch it before my engine nukes itself

Btw i might have missed but what's the main advantage of floating pins?

 

[66fs]

Like I expllained, the book had some conflicting information when I read and compared the text, the illustrations and text, and the charts.


They said that the same rod was used in the 360's, 340's and 318's after 72. However the chart says that the 73 340 rod was the 2899495 forging which was floating. They don't list a press fit rod for the 340.

Did the 72 & 73 340's have press fit or floating rods from the factory?


Then the chart says that the 318 used the 340 rod 2899495 in 72 & 73, then changed to the 3418645 (360 press fit) rod in 74.

According to the chart, the 340's only had a floating pin, not a press fit pin. So then how did they use the same rod as the 360?

Then the picture shows the heavy duty rod on top and the "light duty" rod on the bottom. The text underneath states that the heavy duty rod was used in the 340 and 360 4 bbls and the light duty rod was used in the 273, 318, & 360 2 bbl.

The chart does not show a press fit rod for the 273, only floating.


So that leads me to question. Did the 340 have press fit or floating rods in 72 & 73?

All 340 rods were floating. They just installed the bronze bushing for the 340, which ever rod they were using. Earlier 340's did use a different forging, 495 sound right without looking. Most 72 and 73 340's I rebuilt were using the 645 forging. I've never seen a light duty rod in a 360. We used to get 360's for the heavy rods and good heads for use in 273's and 318's.

 

[krazykuda]

All 340 rods were floating. They just installed the bronze bushing for the 340, which ever rod the were using. Earlier 340's did use a different forging, 495 sound right without looking. Most 72 and 73 340's I rebuilt were using the 645 forging. I've never seen a light duty rod in a 360. We used to get 360's for the heavy rods for use in 273's and 318's.

Yeah, the info in the book was all ef'ed up.... :wack:


The good thing is that his rods will work fine. :cheers:

 

[66fs]

No real advantage to the floating pins. Ease of assembly and if you are using real light, thin, racing pins less chance of damaging them. You have to have a press to remove and should use a heater install pressed pins but, there is no wear on the pin bore of the rod. The good thing is he has the heavy duty rods and they will work fine.

 

[krazykuda]

Thanks for the reply krazykuda... i know before i start moving up the redline with cam, heads, etc. I want to sonic check the block as it was already bored .060" when i got it and if the cylinders check out ok i will go ahead and install aftermarket rods with new bolts. I've put probably 10,000 somewhat hard miles on it including two passes down the strip and it has held up great so far. I just hope if a bolt fails it happens slowly so i can catch it before my engine nukes itself

Btw i might have missed but what's the main advantage of floating pins?

As far as the engine is concerned, there is no difference.

I guess that you can install the floating pistons at home in your garage with a set of snap ring pliers. To buy a heater to install press fit rods at home is too expensive, so you have to bring them to a machine shop to have assembled. That is how it would impact the home builder.

It makes a difference in manufacturing the engines.

floating pins require snap rings (clips) on each side of the piston to keep the pin from coming out. It sometimes becomes difficult in a high volume production process to install the clips and make sure that they are installed correctly, or one not getting installed. If a clip is not installed, the wrist pin will eventually "walk" out of the piston and score the cylinder wall. They put an automated machine in to check for the presence of the wrist pin clips on each side, but it can have problems and miss one once in a while.


Press fit pistons require that the connecting rod be heated and then install the wrist pin. this requires good process control to make sure that the rods are not overheated, but heated enough to install the wrist pin. Overheating the rod will weaken the strength of the rod (it turns blue). Underheating will make the wrist pin hang up when installing. The proper heat will turn the rod a yellow/brown (straw) color.


It's more of a manufacturing issue and how well they maintain their equipment at the factory. The engine itself "doesn't care" how you connect the piston and rod, as long as it's done correctly.


It's easy building one engine at a time in your garage. You have all the time in the world. In an engine factory, there are production targets to reach and maintain (or the CEO bitches out the plant manager and the **** rolls down hill from there).

The line that I was involved with we built approximately 1200 v-6 engines per shift on two shifts. Each assembly line operator had 23 seconds to complete their jobs. So there were 12 line operators "shooting" (installing) 6 pistons every 23 seconds. We had to have a section next to the assembly line that could build up enough pistons and rods with rings installed to keep them supplied (minus any that didn't pin all the way - scrap). We had to set up enough stations with operators to pin approximately 7500 pistons per shift (working 7 hours after the breaks were taken). A bit more of a challenge than building in your garage....


The piston 'ringers' were amazing. One operator would install the center oil ring by hand. Then they had automatic "ringers" - machines that would install both skinny oil rings, and both compression rings at the same time! The operators who ran the "ringers" would take the piston and rod with the center oil ring "scraper ring" on them and put them in a "hole" then hit a foot pedal, and all of the rings were installed at the same time in one cycle. Just put the piston all the way to the bottom of "the hole", hit the foot pedal, and then hang them on an overhead conveyor to bring them to the piston shooters on the assembly line. It took only 5 seconds to install the 4 rings. Awesome!

 

[krazykuda]

THAT BRITISH HUMOR IS JUST TOOOOO MUCH!!!! I couldn't stop watching!!

On a serious subject, you simply drill the small hole in the plug before you install it. Then deburr the hole as required. Yes it is a delicate operation but if you drill it with the plug in a vise and you are careful the worst that can happen is that you break the drill bit (no big deal). You could also take a die grinder and grind a very small hole in the plug this way you don't break any drill bits. Actually once your carbide burr breaks through just the littlest bit you can take your drill bit and finish the job. If the hole only ends up being .020/.025/.030" it doesn't matter as long as you don't make it any larger!! If it comes out too big (no big deal) get another plug, they are cheap!! You can get a lot of oil to shoot out of a .020" hole under 30/40 PSI.

Treblig

Hey man, I just tried this last night with my son's engine. I drilled holes in the galley plugs, but had two issues:

1. I did not have any drill bits at .030". So I tried with the smallest drill bit that I had, which was 1/16" = .062". I think that it will be ok, as it still is a very small hole.... (That's what he said.... LOL!) I should be ok. as I am running a high volume pump with a high pressure spring (the hv pump and hp spring should have enough "@ss" to keep up with any losses - I hope) :sad1:


2. There it was easier to start the drill from the back of the plug as there was a little "raised circle" that was left on the part (almost like a burr, but not loose) and it helped me keep everything more on center than trying to use a punch and drill from the hex key side. ;)


However, when we tried to remove the "access" plug in the rear of the block to change the left rear lifter galley plug, the access plug was too tight. I didn't have the proper square tool to remove it. It was bigger than 1/4" drive, but smaller than 3/8" drive (probably a 5/16" drive???). :banghead:


So I went and found a cheap "made in china" 3/8" extension (3" long) and ground the head down to .311". Then heated the access plug with a propane torch (And propane accessories) but could not get the plug out. The cheap metal in the "china" extension just bent and twisted under the strain.... :banghead:

My son wanted to get his engine together, so we decided to wait and try it on the next engine that is going together. (We are already starting on prepping the block).

I will have to try an impact extension to get this one out in the future. :violent1: