400 BB build issues

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Volare_4life

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HEy guys I think this might be my first post, but i have been lurking and gathering info for a while now. I am a f-body guy, but if i could ever afford an A-body that doesn't need a full on resto I would, but here goes,

I put a 400BB in my '79 Volare





and now I am stuck like chuck, the rusty color all over everything is from the radiator and block flush/ first explosion of water. So I have kept having problems with what i assume is head gasket issues, but now i am thinking more head issues, and not willing to go aluminium just yet ($1,000 is a big chunk just to throw at something for trouble shooting) but if thats what will fix it, heres the story in the short,

-73 vintage block .040 over
-906 heads decked to clean up
-block decked to clean up
-calculated comp is right around 9.8-1
-stock length eagle h-beams
-KB 240 hyper pistons
-383 forged crank cleaned up stock specs
- felpro gasket kit (felpro blue gaskets)
-GMB aluminium WP
-440source aluminium pass side water pump housing
-ARP bolts for mains
-ARP head studs
- firecore dizzy and wires

first issues with was on first start, brought up rpms for break in, then water puked from the rad filler neck, I just figured huge air bubble, shut it down to cool continued to try and burp it, nothing was working.

disconnected wp/alt belt and it still was puking from the rad filler neck, not good, pulled off the valve train and retorqued the head gaskets ( installed finger tight with the arp lube, on re torque #3 i broke them all loose snugged them down with an allen key, then retorqued them) and still same issue.

ripped the heads back off the motor, took them back to the machine shop, had them go through them again, re magna flu them, and still all checks good. put it all back together, except this time copper spray the gaskets, and now all seemed right with the world.

except now it still does this......
[video:youtube]https://youtu.be/GO94yMbJUiU[/video]

and the [censored] is driving me insane, and no i broke the mic on my iphone so no sound, but still shows how even theres no belt it still bubbles and gurggles, also once shut it down, refilled it with water, put the radiator cap on, drove it around the front yard, parked it and shut it down, i could hear an audible hiss from the passenger side right around the 4-6 cylinder region, which has me thinking i have a crack in a water jacket, but......


no water in oil
no oil in water
no visible water leaks
no "white smoke" or any smoke/water vapor from either muffler

I am really getting irritated with this, like to the point of selling it and going back to the boosted slant, kinda pissed... but jesus i have so much $$$$$$ into the build, and so much $$$ into the iron heads,

I need help guys, and if your in the local jacksonville, fl area feel free to come by, i have a beer fridge in the garage lol

-Mike
 
Tell us what the water temperature is and replace the radiator cap.
 
radiator cap is near new I would need a infared thermometer for accuracy, it only gets about half way on the gage, no t-stat installed, did the same thing with a tstat in
 
Link didn't open for some reason...

What is halfway on the gage? 160? 180? 200?

Do you have a fan installed? I can't see one...

Fan Shroud? Don't see one of those either...

Stock radiator? I can't tell but the one in the pic above looks stock; and I'm going to hop on a limb and say a 400 probably needs significantly more cooling capacity than a slant

Bottom rad hose staying open? (not collapsing at increased RPM) I've seen this too many times...

Timing? If it's too far retarded, you'll have poor throttle response and mixture still burning leaving the engine...heat soaks the heads...

I can't say with any level of familiarity, but there have been some guys on here that had issues similar to yours with the 440 source water pump housing if memory serves...
 
oh...running without a t-stat can be just as bad as running the wrong one...

...and man, i know a 400 is a pretty heavy beast, but what's up with the rear end? It looks like you're stomping the brakes from 100+ LOL
 
Nowhere near enough radiator. That's the original F body radiator I see.......lose it for something better. A LOT better. RUN A THERMOSTAT. Put a 180* Mr Gasklet high flow thermostat in it. They work GOOD. Where on God's green earth do people come up with the idea that not running one is a good thing? Put a BIG box fan in front of it for break in. The more air flow the better.

IMO, if you have no white smoke, no water in oil, no oil in water and no skips you can RULE OUT a blown head gasket or cracked head. But if you keep running it with a half *** cooling system, that won't be for long.
 
Are you running the engine without the water pump/fan belt in that video? And then pouring cold water from a hose into what appears to be a hot engine? With the system open (not under pressure), and no water pump circulating coolant, you're basically using your engine to boil water. #-o

If everything was installed properly and the system was buttoned up when you first started it for break in, how did you have an "explosion of water"? Where did it come from?
 
Yup. He has no belt on it in that video. Jeezus man, FINISH the thing and THEN get it running. What the HELL are you thinking?
 
Holy **** man--I finally saw the video--no wonder you had an "explosion"... You have no turning water pump no fan no shroud...dude, quit torturing that poor 400--what did it ever do to you? What you're experiencing there with the "explosions" are due to VERY HOT cylinders and heads trying to dissipate the heat heat because there's no water flowing past them and when water does touch them, it steams up instantly and the expansion looks for the first easy path out--the water neck on the radiator...just stop...stop what you're doing and get a friggin belt on that thing with a fan and a shroud and a 180 stat just like RRR said.
 
heres my response's in red
your qoutes in basic black
and me quoting myself in

Quote "txstang84

Link didn't open for some reason...

What is halfway on the gage? 160? 180? 200? its the factory dash gage so 180 ? same spot my built and boosted slant lived at 20lbs of boost for awhile

Do you have a fan installed? I can't see one... no fan or shroud installed wanted to finish the full break in first

Fan Shroud? Don't see one of those either...

Stock radiator? I can't tell but the one in the pic above looks stock; and I'm going to hop on a limb and say a 400 probably needs significantly more cooling capacity than a slant its not a stock radiator, well not for a slant atleast its a 18" tall 24" wide almost 2" thick radiator from a 4x4 A/c road ramcharger, and my boosted and intercooled turbo slant ( at 20lbs of boost)and cooled it just fine


Bottom rad hose staying open? (not collapsing at increased RPM) I've seen this too many times...nope hoses are brand new and not collapsing

Timing? If it's too far retarded, you'll have poor throttle response and mixture still burning leaving the engine...heat soaks the heads...
timing is rock solid, aside from running lean at idle and richening when "whacking the throttle" and there is zero lag when bliping the throttle by hand

I can't say with any level of familiarity, but there have been some guys on here that had issues similar to yours with the 440 source water pump housing if memory serves... I know what your taking about, and it was with the passenger side pump housings having their cooling hole too small, you can buy them for half what a correct size opening one goes for and with an hour or so work of grinding and smoothing to gasket match your good to go

oh...running without a t-stat can be just as bad as running the wrong one...

Again I ran without a tstat for the initial break in, the car hasn't been on the street, simply backed out of the garage twice


...and man, i know a 400 is a pretty heavy beast, but what's up with the rear end? It looks like you're stomping the brakes from 100+ I pulled the k-member off for re work( fully welded seams, cutting and fitting of the swap mounts and installing the big block and trans (( with headers installed)) factory style rolled it under the car for install, also installed solid aluminium biscuits at the same time, the rear is my attempt at making XHD rear leafs and failing, but atleast making the attempt, I now have 5 leaf drop springs from ESPO/springs and things with poly bushing ready to install

Holy **** man--I finally saw the video--no wonder you had an "explosion"... You have no turning water pump no fan no shroud...dude, quit torturing that poor 400--what did it ever do to you? again if you READ my first post the belt was originally hooked up for break in, it was suggested to disconnect it and see if exhaust is escaping in the coolant and causing the issue first issues with was on first start, brought up rpms for break in, then water puked from the rad filler neck, I just figured huge air bubble, shut it down to cool continued to try and burp it, nothing was working.

disconnected wp/alt belt and it still was puking from the rad filler neck, not good

What you're experiencing there with the "explosions" are due to VERY HOT cylinders and heads trying to dissipate the heat heat because there's no water flowing past them and when water does touch them, it steams up instantly and the expansion looks for the first easy path out--the water neck on the radiator...just stop...stop what you're doing and get a friggin belt on that thing with a fan and a shroud and a 180 stat just like RRR said.
she has a belt on, just not in that video and still has the same out come

one down.....moving on to #2

quote"RustyRatRod Nowhere near enough radiator. That's the original F body radiator I see.......actually if you look close you will see that the factory shroud was opened up to fit the larger 18" tall 24" wide almost 2" thick radiator from a 4x4 A/c road ramcharger, and cooled it just finelose it for something better. A LOT better. RUN A THERMOSTAT. Put a 180* Mr Gasklet high flow thermostat in it. They work GOOD. Where on God's green earth do people come up with the idea that not running one is a good thing? Put a BIG box fan in front of it for break in. The more air flow the better. I had a 36" big round industrial fan in front for air flow, hence the reason the whole engine bay is covered in red rust water

IMO, if you have no white smoke, no water in oil, no oil in water and no skips you can RULE OUT a blown head gasket or cracked head. But if you keep running it with a half *** cooling system, that won't be for long.

Yup. He has no belt on it in that video. Jeezus man, FINISH the thing and THEN get it running. What the HELL are you thinking? there is a belt on it, again I pulled it for trouble shooting, and again i am thinking i have F$%&ing coolant issue and i am trying my best to figure it out, and asking for advice before i have a $3,000 boat anchor

Quote" dozer556 Are you running the engine without the water pump/fan belt in that video? And then pouring cold water from a hose into what appears to be a hot engine? With the system open (not under pressure), and no water pump circulating coolant, you're basically using your engine to boil water.

If everything was installed properly and the system was buttoned up when you first started it for break in, how did you have an "explosion of water"? Where did it come from? the explosion of water came from the radiator filler neck, the cap was left off to help the system burp out any excess air, and thats when it started gushing out of the top, i only splashed water in the rad to show how its geysering out of the top, again i know its smart to mix warm and hot ( it was 100+ in the sun that day, that and with the fact there is 100ft of hose in the sun, the water going in might have been hotter than the water coming out

you know there were some seriously DB response's posted and i did my best not to lose my **** to a few of them, how bout a few of you get off your high F#@%ing horses and realize i am only asking for help, you would never see Slant guys treating each other like this
 
YIKES! Is all I can say, that engine compartment looks like a fire waiting to happen clean up the wiring, that aside, you need that car road ready to break it in.. why you don't have a fan on it is beyond me.. I would never fire up a motor with out one..

like said car road ready, last time I broke in a fresh motor, I started it up, got fuel pressure shut it down, fixed the leaks, filled the coolant, fired it, let it idle to set the base timing, right to 2,000 rpms with the idle screw for 15 minutes, shut it down let it cool, and then changed the oil. fired it up, and drove it, for 10 minutes easing into full throttle to seat the rings, boom it was ready to rock! Changed the oil at 50 miles, then 500 miles, then 2,500 miles, then 4,000 miles - went to RP synthetic 10/30

buy one of these funnels to bleed the cooling system.. It works great!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/lil-24680
 
If you came here for advice you came to the right place but only if you use the advice given above. Any cooling system will boil over when heated if not sealed off from atmosphere.
This is very simple and has already been stated above top it off with coolant then install a new radiator cap put the belt back on it and drive it while making sure it doesn't overheat
and when you shut it down if you here it boiling you have either got a head gasket or cooling system leak.
 
Volare_4life said:
you know there were some seriously DB response's posted and i did my best not to lose my **** to a few of them, how bout a few of you get off your high F#@%ing horses and realize i am only asking for help, you would never see Slant guys treating each other like this
Click to expand...

We'll get to that ^ in a second, but first.....

Have you done your basics? Did you do a compression check to see if there was a cylinder or two down on pressure? What did you set your static base timing at? What was your timing set at for break in? What about fuel pressure? Are you running lean? Did you pressure test your cooling system? Help us help you.

NOW,

You come on here and ask for help. YOU state that you took out the thermostat, took off the fan belt, removed the fan and you post a video with an engine running without a fan belt puking up water when you poor water into it. Your link sucked, I didn't get the pleasure of viewing, but I can read what others have posted. Nowhere did you post that you put the fan, belt, thermostat or anything else back on after that wondrous visual. When others post their comments based on this, we're the Douche Bags?

You sir, get off of your fraking high horse. Get off of my friends ***'s and get off of my forum. Adjust your attitude, check your ego at the door and come back in humbly and we might be able to get your problem sorted out.
 
Volare_4life said:
heres my response's in red
your qoutes in basic black
and me quoting myself in


dozer556 Are you running the engine without the water pump/fan belt in that video? And then pouring cold water from a hose into what appears to be a hot engine? With the system open (not under pressure), and no water pump circulating coolant, you're basically using your engine to boil water.

If everything was installed properly and the system was buttoned up when you first started it for break in, how did you have an "explosion of water"? Where did it come from?
Click to expand...
the explosion of water came from the radiator filler neck, the cap was left off to help the system burp out any excess air, and thats when it started gushing out of the top, i only splashed water in the rad to show how its geysering out of the top, again i know its smart to mix warm and hot ( it was 100+ in the sun that day, that and with the fact there is 100ft of hose in the sun, the water going in might have been hotter than the water coming out
Click to expand...

To be honest, I've only seen this level of coolant boiling/gushing on an engine that's overheated. In the video, the water pump isn't circulating anything, so that rules out a clogged radiator or a faulty water pump (for now) as the reason water is flying all over the place. Let's face it, with no cap on and no pressure in the system, water boils at 212 degrees at atmosphere. If that engine is running and warmed up and you're pouring water into it, it's just going to turn to steam when it hits something hot, and that steam has to go somewhere. It's just going to force everything out the nearest opening.

So the advice given above (run a thermostat, put the belt back on, mount a fan, fill with coolant and cap the system) is still the best starting (or re-starting) point you have, IMHO. Everything else in line, like trying to break in that engine, will come later.

You're not running a flat tappet cam, are you?


Volare_4life said:
you know there were some seriously DB response's posted and i did my best not to lose my **** to a few of them, how bout a few of you get off your high F#@%ing horses and realize i am only asking for help, you would never see Slant guys treating each other like this
Click to expand...

I don't think any of the responses posted were "seriously DB". You have to admit that you put up a video that pretty much showed the worst case scenario. If you can't take some honest criticism (and yes, some of it was pointed) you might want to reevaluate using the internet to find help. There are some here with online personalities that you might find grating, but it doesn't mean the advice they offer is any less valid because of that.

[ame]https://youtu.be/GO94yMbJUiU[/ame]
 
Ok. That's it for me. Bubble away.
 
Dude, you MUST be kidding.......you SERIOUSLY lack even BASIC diagnostic skills, so then you want to come on here and lash out at people who actually know what there doing, and who try to give you advise? sheesh.........:wack:
 
you know there were some seriously DB response's posted and i did my best not to lose my **** to a few of them, how bout a few of you get off your high F#@%ing horses and realize i am only asking for help, you would never see Slant guys treating each other like this
Click to expand...

DB responses? High horse? Seriously? Who takes a belt off for troubleshooting a cooling issue? That would be like pulling the negative battery terminal to troubleshoot an ignition issue, then trying to start it. Perhaps my response sounded a little hasty to you, but you said it yourself bro, you don't want your engine to turn into a $3K door stop or boat anchor.

We would never see slant guys treating each other like this? Dude, I don't care if you're driving a slant car a Fiat or a damn bulldozer; you post up a video which clearly exhibits you have no grasp of how to keep a cooling system working properly, then expect us *not* to be a emphatic with our responses? Call it hasty if you want man, but you made a bonehead move and expected to not be called on it?

Again I ran without a tstat for the initial break in
Click to expand...

Again, running without a thermostat isn't smart--regardless of the situation...

no fan or shroud installed wanted to finish the full break in first
Click to expand...

Faulty logic--never operate a newly assembled engine without a completely functional cooling system. Maybe you're used to not needing a complete cooling system for your slant, but a big block needs it.

I had a 36" big round industrial fan in front for air flow, hence the reason the whole engine bay is covered in red rust water
Click to expand...

Was the 36" big round industrial fan blowing directly into the radiator less than a foot in front of it--like butted against the front end, or 5 feet in front of the car? Unless it's just a few inches away, it's not moving as much air as you think--which is completely negated by the fact that you didn't have a fan or shroud anyway...

Maybe you have run a slant like that at idle (or even break in) or while you're driving, but I'd almost bet you had a cooling fan on it--AND--you wouldn't be under any boost anyway until you put a load on the engine (chassis dyno or driving), which means you wouldn't be creating anywhere near the same amount of heat...at least if you're driving, you have some ram air exchanging some heat from the engine compartment and radiator.

So, sorry not sorry your feelings got a little hurt--how about this?

1) Put your cooling system completely back together...180* t-stat, fan with known good clutch, shroud, etc

timing is rock solid
Click to expand...
,

This is not an answer...

aside from running lean at idle
Click to expand...

This is a problem in an of itself...

Next?
 
Just reassessed another possibility--you said it's covered in rusty water now from the geyser-like expulsions from the radiator...

Did the block sit for a while and have garbage in the jackets before you got around to putting it together?

Are you positive the radiator is unclogged in any way? If you have a bunch of rusty water coming out, that usually means you had debris somewhere in the cooling system or it was sitting for a while without being cleaned before running.
 
You have a couple concerns - is the water pump definately good? I'd seen impellers on backwards and they don;t work that way. The Source housings are crap. Buying one because it's cheap and requires modification is like buying a steak at a restaurant for burger pricing and only expecting to have to cook it. With the starting and stopping there is a very real chance the camshaft is going to fail. I hope you have taken every precaution on that end of things.
My order of operation starts with "lose the Source pump & housing". Put on a factory housing and a Milodon water pump. The housings are not hard to get or expensive - I have several if you want one pay to ship it there and it's yours. The Source product has issues that they don't care to worry about. I use them for many things - cooling parts ain't any of them.
Add the Mr Gasket thermostat. Not a "new one" from the parts store. Get the Mr G one. There are differences and that one is a better part.
Add the fan shroud. They are there for a reason - and it's not to impede first start.
Put a hose on thje overflow tube at the neck, long enough to get it out of the slipstream.
Leave the cap off for break in and expect it to burp. I always have the hose there handy in case.
 
I know I always had to drill a 1/8" hole in the t-stat on my Mustang (for burping)--is that any kind of concern on a Mopar? Just remembered that...
 
RustyRatRod said:
Where on God's green earth do people come up with the idea that not running one is a good thing?
Click to expand...


There is nothing wrong with running without a T-stat so long as you run the proper size restriction ring. If you run an electric water pump you are not supposed to run a T-stat.
 
txstang84 said:
Just reassessed another possibility--you said it's covered in rusty water now from the geyser-like expulsions from the radiator...

Did the block sit for a while and have garbage in the jackets before you got around to putting it together?

Are you positive the radiator is unclogged in any way? If you have a bunch of rusty water coming out, that usually means you had debris somewhere in the cooling system or it was sitting for a while without being cleaned before running.
Click to expand...

I think the OP said he reused the radiator from his Slant project...

its a 18" tall 24" wide almost 2" thick radiator from a 4x4 A/c road ramcharger, and my boosted and intercooled turbo slant ( at 20lbs of boost)and cooled it just fine

but I doubt he cleaned it before he put it in front of the 440.
 
Yeah, I don't disagree...I just figured most people would take their radiator to a shop to verify that between the engine swaps--unless you just had it done or couldn't afford the downtime for it to be done.

Contrary to how it may appear to the OP, I--for one--would like to see this thing running...don't see many Volares with big blocks running and driving on the street.
 
txstang84 said:
I know I always had to drill a 1/8" hole in the t-stat on my Mustang (for burping)--is that any kind of concern on a Mopar? Just remembered that...
Click to expand...

That is a little trick taught to me many many years ago. It is a good thing to do on any engine. This little trick can prevent air pockets and makes your life much easier.
 
ARE you a member here? => http://www.forfmjbodiesonly.com/ I'm sure they can give you some pointers specific to your car as well.

I seen you mentioned hissing after shut down... as I didn't see anyone mention this, I must ask did you seal the threads on your exhaust bolts that are at the front and rear of the heads as they go into the water jacket and if not sealed will weep and hiss.

IMO, your rad on a big block should be 28" and at least a 2core (3 recommended) with shroud.
 
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