408 or gen 3 hemi

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PRH said:
550-ish rwhp is in the 650-700hp range at the crank.

I really don’t see an NA 408/416 build at that power level, based on a factory/stock block, being the picture of reliability.
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You think an N/A Gen 3 will be any easier or cheaper? I don't and its ugly to boot
 
A gen3 in an a body isn’t as simple as it sounds. It’s not a simple plug and pay and an na gen3 isn’t the powerhouse everyone thinks it is without opening it up to do some mods which aren’t cheap. I would hate to see what one would cost me to go 9.40’s in my car.
 
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1Fast340 said:
Gen 3 Hemi all the way. Great heads and very stable bottom end straight from the factory, its a great package i do like smallblocks in many ways and love hot smallblocks on the street but the G3 is just supperior in most ways.
BTW is that terminator EFI one of the TBI style EFI systems? Is that system also capable of controling the Gen3 hemis ignitionsystem? trying to learn here.
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Holley has something for the coil packs yes. I believe it plugs into where now is the distributor plug in
 
pittsburghracer said:
A gen3 in an a body isn’t as simple as it sounds. It’s not a simple plug and pay an an na gen3 isn’t the powerhouse everyone thinks it is without opening it up to do some mods which aren’t cheap. I would hate to see what one would cost me to go 9.40’s in my car.
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Nothing is plug and play lol! I thought putting this 318 in would be easy because they came with one right… no..
If I go gen 3 it might start as a stock long block with a cam with 4150 throttle body top end, see how fast it feels. Then if it’s not good enough do a 426 stroker. Something about a new school hemi dart is cool to me. Love the lo23 cars
 
IMO, 700 n/a hp at the flywheel isn’t going to be cheap no matter what it is.

If it was cheap and easy with a gen lll there would be a bunch of them in the wild and I’m not seeing any in my part of the country.
 
justinp61 said:
IMO, 700 n/a hp at the flywheel isn’t going to be cheap no matter what it is.

If it was cheap and easy with a gen lll there would be a bunch of them in the wild and I’m not seeing any in my part of the country.
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It's not going to happen with a standard block, unless it's a big block and there is still a reliability issue.
 
fishmens67 said:
It's not going to happen with a standard block, unless it's a big block and there is still a reliability issue.
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Oh it could, just wouldn’t happen for very long. :lol:

I’d like to think anyone seriously considering building a small block to that level is smart enough to realize a stock block won’t live long.
 
Clearly I have a bias as I just stuffed a Gen 3 in my A body. It was not easy but it was very worth it. Car drives great, I simply do not have enough good to say about it. I will do it again. For any of you seriously considering it I did a build thread while doing mine and addressed many of the issues and my solutions to them. 6.1 Gen 3 in 72 Demon. While I may not have always chose the best solution I got er done in the end. And I think it is beautiful. It in no way reduces my love of classic SB Mopars but it is beautiful in its own way.

A29DF83A-C741-49E1-9946-13907DD0026E.jpeg
 
justinp61 said:
IMO, 700 n/a hp at the flywheel isn’t going to be cheap no matter what it is.

If it was cheap and easy with a gen lll there would be a bunch of them in the wild and I’m not seeing any in my part of the country.
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Your figuring about 30% loss?
 
Sublime one said:
Clearly I have a bias as I just stuffed a Gen 3 in my A body. It was not easy but it was very worth it. Car drives great, I simply do not have enough good to say about it. I will do it again. For any of you seriously considering it I did a build thread while doing mine and addressed many of the issues and my solutions to them. 6.1 Gen 3 in 72 Demon. While I may not have always chose the best solution I got er done in the end. And I think it is beautiful. It in no way reduces my love of classic SB Mopars but it is beautiful in its own way.

View attachment 1715775450
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what’s it run.
 
SlantedDart said:
Your figuring about 30% loss?
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For the what it is worth column I used Holley EFI in my Gen 3 build and I am on edge of getting it tuned to the point of dyno session. I would be happy to share results. And yes I had several integration issues, none insurmountable but just nit picky stuff thebLS crowd does not see as their platform is far more evolved. Mopar is closing the gap tho. I already have a race car and built this to drive on street. Going back to OPs original thoughts my Cuda is 633 HP at the crank but I am considerably shy of 550 at the wheels. Agreeing with so many on here 550 at the wheels is serious power I don’t care what platform you use. To attain that is a serious commitment to investment with dollars and some skull sweat. I had to badge it with the 370 called out vs the 6.1! Hah!

82AC09F9-7511-4926-8909-DE707F547292.jpeg


69CF6311-DF98-4257-B167-13F8D108FD03.jpeg
 
pittsburghracer said:
what’s it run.
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I don’t know yet I am still shaking it down and refining tune, I still have some stumble on tip in but am just about to the point of a dyno session. Lost a caliper on a test drive this week and locked up front right. Made a very impromptu hard right turn. Caliper rubbed hole in rim so I am waiting on new rim. Arghh!
 
Sublime one said:
I don’t know yet I am still shaking it down and refining tune, I still have some stumble on tip in but am just about to the point of a dyno session. Lost a caliper on a test drive this week and locked up front right. Made a very impromptu hard right turn. Caliper rubbed hole in rim so I am waiting on new rim. Arghh!
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Bummer. I can’t wait to hear some ET numbers. Dyno numbers aren’t my thing.
 
SlantedDart said:
@Sublime one would like to hear the combo on the cuda!
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Stroked 440 with Mega squirt 3 runs on pump gas (barely) While I love the small blocks I had the 440 on hand and since my budget is always limited, my design criteria is very often dictated by resources on hand. Ie is that the best intake? No, but it is what I had on shelf! Some of these guys on here are serious racers and while I would love to be, farming just does not allow that. I run what I can, when I can, and I have a blast doing it win lose or draw. I just think it is fun to essentially compete against myself. Do I like to win? Heck yeah! Do I have to win at all costs? Nope. The fellowship and life long friends made at the track are priceless. Heck you might even trade a 5-600 dollar carb to a fellow racer here on FABO for a dog and beer at the next race!
 
pittsburghracer said:
Bummer. I can’t wait to hear some ET numbers. Dyno numbers aren’t my thing.
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Once I get the tune hitting track is next step, we have a lot of the modern (stock) challengers at our track and contrary to urban myth they are not ten second cars. Depending on meats most are high 11s or low 12s. Since I am roughly 1200 pounds lighter but running three pedals I am targeting mid 11s realistically. Super excited to make a pass but need to get all my loose fasteners and ensure I have no leaks prior to track. I have a small drip at pinion that I fear is going to force me to tear into it. Nobody wants to be that guy and leave a trail in your lane!
 
Maybe I’m just too fixed on the hp numbers here.. my ls swapped mustang went 10.70 136 mph @2700 ish lb. That motor was in a Camaro before I bought it. It put down 436 to the tire.. 5.7,stock heads, with a monster n/a cam and a 6 speed. So at 30% loss that motor “should” make 566 ish hp.. hard to believe out of a 346..

I guess what the real question is most hellcats and scat packs are going how fast in the 1/4? ( mostly stock/ some mods) I’d be happier than **** to make this Dart go 10.50. I’m guessing it’s 3,000 lb ish. What’s a dependable pump gas combo for the 360 base and gen 3 base to go 10.50’s
 
If a engine made 700 at the flywheel and 550 at the wheels it’s a 21.5% loss. A stick will have less loss than a auto.

it seems to me that 136 was a big mph for a 10.70 et. I’d think the et should be very high 9’s or very low 10’s. Wallace shows 535 hp for 136 mph @ 2700 and 436 from the 10.7 et and same weight. Using your wheel numbers and Wallace’s flywheel numbers it would be a 18.5% loss.

What were the 1/8 mile numbers?
 
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SlantedDart said:
Maybe I’m just too fixed on the hp numbers here.. my ls swapped mustang went 10.70 136 mph @2700 ish lb. That motor was in a Camaro before I bought it. It put down 436 to the tire.. 5.7,stock heads, with a monster n/a cam and a 6 speed. So at 30% loss that motor “should” make 566 ish hp.. hard to believe out of a 346..

I guess what the real question is most hellcats and scat packs are going how fast in the 1/4? ( mostly stock/ some mods) I’d be happier than **** to make this Dart go 10.50. I’m guessing it’s 3,000 lb ish. What’s a dependable pump gas combo for the 360 base and gen 3 base to go 10.50’s
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571 dyno hp with 508 tq 415" N/A small block in a 3320 pound '68 Barracuda with 4.10 gears, pump premium, 8" 5200 converter with a fast 904 from ProTrans netted me in my first year ever drag racing consistent high 6.60's to low 6.70's in the 1/8th and 10.48 in the quarter so i'm not sure what everybody else is doing wrong but like I stated earlier your goals are simple to achieve and yes at the track the stock and also slightly modified Hellcats were easy picking.....they are heavy tanks.
 
justinp61 said:
If a engine made 700 at the flywheel and 550 at the wheels it’s a 21.5% loss. A stick will have less loss than a auto.

it seems to me that 136 was a big mph for a 10.70 et. I’d think the et should be very high 9’s or very low 10’s. Wallace shows 535 hp for 136 mph @ 2700 and 436 from the 10.7 et and same weight. Using your wheel numbers and Wallace’s flywheel numbers it would be a 18.5% loss.

What were the 1/8 mile numbers?
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Don’t remember the 1/8 it was about 8 years ago… nevertheless 60 ft was horrible. Car bogged off the line off the trans break. No jet extension on the carb and it starved itself. Maybe it had more in it not sure
 
'68cuda416 said:
571 dyno hp with 508 tq 415" N/A small block in a 3320 pound '68 Barracuda with 4.10 gears, pump premium, 8" 5200 converter with a fast 904 from ProTrans netted me in my first year ever drag racing consistent high 6.60's to low 6.70's in the 1/8th and 10.48 in the quarter so i'm not sure what everybody else is doing wrong but like I stated earlier your goals are simple to achieve and yes at the track the stock and also slightly modified Hellcats were easy picking.....they are heavy tanks.
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Thats awesome thanks for sharing
 
My combo - comparable to yours, 68 Valiant 2dr sedan - runs 10.7 / 125 mph at the moment with a little more in it for sure. It´s a pretty base 408 with cnc´d procomp heads, 10:1, scat cast crank and kb hyper pistons, custom HR cam 250/250 @.050", 108°LSA, .620" Lift. home built 904, Ford 8.8 with 4.10 gears, SS Springs.

So in my opinion it should not be too difficult to go 10.50s and below with better stuff, such as a indy top end from a shop that knows what they are doing.

Michael
 
360duster said:
My combo - comparable to yours, 68 Valiant 2dr sedan - runs 10.7 / 125 mph at the moment with a little more in it for sure. It´s a pretty base 408 with cnc´d procomp heads, 10:1, scat cast crank and kb hyper pistons, custom HR cam 250/250 @.050", 108°LSA, .620" Lift. home built 904, Ford 8.8 with 4.10 gears, SS Springs.

So in my opinion it should not be too difficult to go 10.50s and below with better stuff, such as a indy top end from a shop that knows what they are doing.

Michael
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Nice! Any idea on race weight?
 
'68cuda416 said:
571 dyno hp with 508 tq 415" N/A small block in a 3320 pound '68 Barracuda with 4.10 gears, pump premium, 8" 5200 converter with a fast 904 from ProTrans netted me in my first year ever drag racing consistent high 6.60's to low 6.70's in the 1/8th and 10.48 in the quarter so i'm not sure what everybody else is doing wrong but like I stated earlier your goals are simple to achieve and yes at the track the stock and also slightly modified Hellcats were easy picking.....they are heavy tanks.
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My 408 with ported Edelbrocks, victor 340, 950HP, flat solid cam with 1.6 rockers, 10.8-1, 727 with a 9 1/2 converter that flashed 5400, 4.10 gears on radials ran high 6.50's on pump 93 at 3260#. Never had it on a dyno so I don't know what it made. If I can do it any monkey can.
 
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