5.7 L Hemi, ZF 8HP70 Swap

[Uhcoog1]

The price he'll pay for that new hemi will be about the same as the LS3, and that LS3 powered mopar will destroy the hemi

Its not an insult at all. Its a simple matter of fact. From the factory, a new hemi will yeild some pretty underwhelming results for what you're gonna pay.

Ok. Fact check time.

LS3 crate engine 19301326: 430 hp - $6361
LS3 crate engine 19301358: 480 hp (GM Hot Cam) - $6787 (or $8078 with computer and harness)
LS3 crate with engine, tranny, wiring and computer CPSL34L65E: 430 hp - $11,137
LS3 crate engine on ebay: $6650 obo
6.4 hemi crate engine ebay: $7500 obo - 470 hp, 470 ft lb
6.1 hemi used ebay: $5950 ($4000 is more in line with market) - 425 hp, 425 ft lb

LS3 = 6.1 hemi (performance)
They're almost identical in performance with and without a cam swap. Both have hypereutectic pistons. Both have powdered metal rods.




An LS3 powered mopar will NOT 'destroy' a hemi in performance. If anything, it would be a good match-up.

 

[72BBSwinger]

show me where you get an ls3 with trans for 7K. Oh and Magnumdust, show me all this LS power for free you speak of. And I dont want hear how they can make 750hp with a junkyard core and 76mm and live forever to tell us about it because of superiority. GM put lower ring lands in the pistons from the factory, oh boy! What an engineering marvel. A stock 6.1 can do the exact same thing, SO WHAT. What happens to all those 5.3's when they miss the tune up? You dont hear much about those on the internet do ya....

 

[magnumdust]

Ok. Fact check time.

LS3 crate engine 19301326: 430 hp - $6361
LS3 crate engine 19301358: 480 hp (GM Hot Cam) - $6787 (or $8078 with computer and harness)
LS3 crate with engine, tranny, wiring and computer CPSL34L65E: 430 hp - $11,137
LS3 crate engine on ebay: $6650 obo
6.4 hemi crate engine ebay: $7500 obo - 470 hp, 470 ft lb
6.1 hemi used ebay: $5950 ($4000 is more in line with market) - 425 hp, 425 ft lb

LS3 = 6.1 hemi (performance)
They're almost identical in performance with and without a cam swap. Both have hypereutectic pistons. Both have powdered metal rods.




An LS3 powered mopar will NOT 'destroy' a hemi in performance. If anything, it would be a good match-up.

You're negating the huge weight savings of the LS3's aluminum block vs. that iron block hemi.
LS: 448lb
Hemi +/- 600lbs


72BBswinger- There have been countless junkyard LS turbo builds and they hold up.
http://i1138.photobucket.com/albums...0179211_5921270893359568665_n_zpsc6f58a46.jpg

^Has a junkyard LS and won NMCA true street this year. Runs high 8s.

 

[Joe Dokes]

I have no doubts the LS is a good motor, and has better aftermarket support.

That being said. If you are going to build a quality high performance build you're going to spend a lot of money. As the old adage goes, "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?"

Yet that being said in this months hot-rod they covered a 427 cubic inch LS build. Every single part was aftermarket. It took .800 inches of lift on the cam but the motor put out 741 HP. Impressive to be sure.

In comparison a few years ago at the Engine Masters Challenge a 417 Cubic inch Gen III hemi won the competition with an even 700 HP. It was done with a stock block and ported 5.7 Heads and a .650 inch cam.

That being said, it appears that the Hemi has some inherent advantages. For example, last months Hot-Rod had a 700 HP Hemi build. The Hemi had plenty of aftermarket parts including crank, rods, pistons, valve train.

That being said, I'm sure the Hemi was cheaper to build.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

 

[magnumdust]

I have no doubts the LS is a good motor, and has better aftermarket support.

That being said. If you are going to build a quality high performance build you're going to spend a lot of money. As the old adage goes, "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?"

Yet that being said in this months hot-rod they covered a 427 cubic inch LS build. Every single part was aftermarket. It took .800 inches of lift on the cam but the motor put out 741 HP. Impressive to be sure.

In comparison a few years ago at the Engine Masters Challenge a 417 Cubic inch Gen III hemi won the competition with an even 700 HP. It was done with a stock block and ported 5.7 Heads and a .650 inch cam.

That being said, it appears that the Hemi has some inherent advantages. For example, last months Hot-Rod had a 700 HP Hemi build. The Hemi had plenty of aftermarket parts including crank, rods, pistons, valve train.

That being said, I'm sure the Hemi was cheaper to build.

Regards,

Joe Dokes

But in the real world who is gonna do that? I find the Engine Masters challenge to be kind of nonsensical because its out of the realm of 99.9% of people building cars. The vast majority of people who swap to late model engines like to get a solid runner from a recycler/crate engine and build from that. In which case, the LS has proven to have advantages. Both in price and performance.


That said, has anyone looked at that 8spd trans to get an idea of the size? It seems a little excessive gear wise, but it'd be an interesting swap.

 

[72BBSwinger]

Gen III Hemis weigh in at 520lbs. David Barton has the F/S record currently with his Challenger that goes head to head with COPO Camero's. Can't remember the et but the mph calculated out to 875hp out of his little 426 Gen III. If you could find more Gen III hemis in junkyards there would be just as many turbo builds as ls engines. But for some reason junkyards are not packed full of them like they are with ls stuff, go figure...

 

[magnumdust]

Gen III Hemis weigh in at 520lbs. David Barton has the F/S record currently with his Challenger that goes head to head with COPO Camero's. Can't remember the et but the mph calculated out to 875hp out of his little 426 Gen III. If you could find more Gen III hemis in junkyards there would be just as many turbo builds as ls engines. But for some reason junkyards are not packed full of them like they are with ls stuff, go figure...

Well, how many contractor/service trucks & vans are dodge?? The company I work for use to use 1500 class trucks/vans for the techs one level above me. We'd swap from fords to chevy's depending upon the deal they could get. Ball park 50 techs per state, Each turning in a vehicle after 2yrs/60-80k. And most having worn to hell interiors. So you end up with a large number of them in recyclers. Plus the extra 4yrs of being in production over the hemi.

I certainly wish they were as cheap as the LS, but even the cheapest most lowly hemi has an extra price added to it(2nd hand availability issues?)

 

[articcolds]

I can tell most of you that I didn't come on this forum to stir things up. I am in my late 40's and just have questions to those who have experience. Yes I am sure I disturbed the purists about my choice. I have no reason to question the idea of keeping things in the true form of Mopar. The last car I did was a 1969 Camaro and I just laid out cash then got in the car and drove away. Well I couldn't really say I did a thing on the car. This time I wanted to build the car from the ground up. I had an opportunity put in front of me in the form of a 68 Cuda. So I took the challenge. The further I get into this project the more I am learning this is not easy. By this I mean finding parts and finding anything in the aftermarket for this year of Barracuda. Maybe the LS is the easy route. But after more research into the swap it just looks like a problem. So I have decided to have the 360 built and put fuel injection on for a power plant. Then use a T-56 trans because I can get the things I need to make the swap just a little easier.
I doesn't seem to matter how I say it or how I put it to the forum I get barked at. Well I apologize for those who are sensitive. I am just trying to think outside the box and to be creative. Isn't this why we all build and play with our cars? To show some of ourselves in the creation. To be proud of what we accomplished with our own two hands.
Thank you for the information I hope in the future with questions I may have they will be taken through creativity and not sarcasm for the true accomplishment. A fun car that will drive like hell!

 

[72BBSwinger]

Chevies are pretty much color by numbers. Mopars require more than that. I was only stating facts earlier when you said LS. If easier and cheaper is why you build stuff, you really should stick with Chevies.

 

[Hellcat Cuda]

Who said anything about preferring it rot in a junk yard? WTF? Not much rational thinking there mr. rational thinker

Would you rather the car rot in a junk yard??Its something i'll never understand about you mopar only people.

 

[Hellcat Cuda]

Articcold,
Along the same line as BBswinger, if this is your first build and you're familiar with chevys, it would be in your best interest to build a chevy. It WILL be cheaper and much easier; you'll have it on the road a lot sooner. If you're just building the Cuda because it came your way at a good deal, sell it for a profit and go get yourself a chevy.

With regard to brand loyalty, creative thinking, etc, I have the same mindset toward a small block chevy in a 32 ford. I'd much prefer to see a chevy in a chevy; ford in a ford and a Mopar in a Mopar. There's been many sweet old Mopars RUINED (in my opinion) having small block chevys put in them. I hate it when I see a nice 33 Plymouth coupe, etc and you look under the hood to find a small block chevy. What a total waste.

Mopars are definitely more challenging to build right. That's part of the fun in it for me. I'm persistent if not down right stubborn when I build a car and I don't start scrimping when the time or dollars are adding up. I'm not right about that, it's just the way I am. The down side of that is there's a heck of a lot of people out there who are already driving their cars while mine sits unfinished in the garage.

Life is too short. Sell the Cuda and build the brand you know...

 

[magnumdust]

Who said anything about preferring it rot in a junk yard? WTF? Not much rational thinking there mr. rational thinker

Its the attitude, you see it in every purists post on this subject. Its very clear that they believe an LS mopar is the worst thing. I believe I've seen one of the geniuses refer to it as being akin to inbreeding. The funny and sad thing is that this ridiculous mopar or no car nonsense is gonna lead to a lot of dead mopars. In a world of warrantied 750hp monsters and 400hp base models, who wants 300hp, 55mph highway, and 10mpg? Or to spend egregious prices for a new hemi swap because the community was so resistant to benefits of having a reasonably priced LS swap option.

Given all the that, the obvious question is: Would you rather it rot in a junkyard? That's where a lot of them may be headed when they no longer offering anything to the new enthusiast. Say 5-10yrs you'll be getting new 5.0s for 8-10k. Then its good luck and good bye to the budget a-body mopars.

I guess if you thought more, you might see this point of view ;)

 

[4speeds4me]

Cause Chevy guys get so excited when someone sticks a BBM in a Camaro... There's a 67 Camaro in the Vancouver, BC area with a 440 in it, and it pisses the Chevy guys off to no end, so don't just be blaming us Mopar "purists"...for all intensive purposes, it only doesn't bother someone with no brand loyalty, or Chevy guys who got a good deal on a Mopar...

 

[magnumdust]

Cause Chevy guys get so excited when someone sticks a BBM in a Camaro... There's a 67 Camaro in the Vancouver, BC area with a 440 in it, and it pisses the Chevy guys off to no end, so don't just be blaming us Mopar "purists"...for all intensive purposes, it only doesn't bother someone with no brand loyalty, or Chevy guys who got a good deal on a Mopar...

The thing is, mopar people(& pontiac people) seem to have the highest concentration of this insane purism.

I mean i get it if its some rare package, but most of use a putting together cars that originally came with slants or 318s.

 

[Hellcat Cuda]

Lolololololololololololol
Great one! lolololol
That's exactly right! That reminds me that I too am guilty of stirring up some sh*t once. I was restoring a '54 Corvette for a guy and with the blessing of the owner, we went on a Corvette website and I very innocently inquired about how easy or hard would it be to put a nice slant six in the car. After all, "the '54 was one of my favorites and I just happen to have this hot little 225 looking for a home". What an uproar that created!!! I even received death threats. One guy was going to hunt me down and shoot me!

To take some oddball car like a Willys, a Nash, a Fiat Topolino, etc., you can put anything you want in it and it would be cool. But to cross breed a more main stream American car when the options are pretty vast within it's own manufacturer's offerings is rather stupid, in my opinion. When you're done with it, who's going to buy it? You greatly diminish your resale market and price you can get.

It just occurred to me too how putting a late model Hemi in these older muscle cars stirs up some harsh feelings within the Mopar camp. There's guys who think we're ruining them by not sticking with a carbed / distributor engine.

Cause Chevy guys get so excited when someone sticks a BBM in a Camaro... There's a 67 Camaro in the Vancouver, BC area with a 440 in it, and it pisses the Chevy guys off to no end, so don't just be blaming us Mopar "purists"...for all intensive purposes, it only doesn't bother someone with no brand loyalty, or Chevy guys who got a good deal on a Mopar...

 

[MopaR&D]

The thing is, mopar people(& pontiac people) seem to have the highest concentration of this insane purism. I mean i get it if its some rare package, but most of use a putting together cars that originally came with slants or 318s.

I think the problem is you're being a little too rational here... We're talking about classic muscle cars here not modern tuners or race cars. For a person to be willing to sink his/her time and money into swapping a new engine into an old car they have to be a little "irrational" in the first place IMO. This hobby is a lot more about emotion and feeling and the excitement of driving an old car than spending the least amount of money to go fast. Like has been said if you want to save money by using an LS motor there are millions of old GM vehicles out there to put them in and a HUGE aftermarket to build the rest of the car to drive like a modern 'Vette. I just don't understand why you would bother to get a Mopar and then put a GM engine in it when you know at least 90% of either GM or Mopar fans would hate the idea. Yes it's 'your car' and you can do whatever you want with it but whether you like it or not unless you keep the car locked up in a garage and never show it to anybody, guess what you are gonna run into people who take one look at that LS in the engine bay of your Dart/Cuda/whatever and say "huh that car's been ruined..."

Muscle cars aren't about being rational in fact muscle car fans are probably the least rational car nuts out there! Myself included for sure...

 

[magnumdust]

I think the problem is you're being a little too rational here... We're talking about classic muscle cars here not modern tuners or race cars. For a person to be willing to sink his/her time and money into swapping a new engine into an old car they have to be a little "irrational" in the first place IMO. This hobby is a lot more about emotion and feeling and the excitement of driving an old car than spending the least amount of money to go fast. Like has been said if you want to save money by using an LS motor there are millions of old GM vehicles out there to put them in and a HUGE aftermarket to build the rest of the car to drive like a modern 'Vette. I just don't understand why you would bother to get a Mopar and then put a GM engine in it when you know at least 90% of either GM or Mopar fans would hate the idea. Yes it's 'your car' and you can do whatever you want with it but whether you like it or not unless you keep the car locked up in a garage and never show it to anybody, guess what you are gonna run into people who take one look at that LS in the engine bay of your Dart/Cuda/whatever and say "huh that car's been ruined..."

Muscle cars aren't about being rational in fact muscle car fans are probably the least rational car nuts out there! Myself included for sure...

These are "tuner cars and race cars" by definition of whats being done to them. what would you say give/take 5-10% of this forum build these cars as 100% oem for shows while the rest build street/strip cars, tuned cruisers, the rare roadrace setup, or pure strip cars

Why do an LS in an RX7? Why do an LS into anything old? Afterall, there are plenty of second hand camaros, corvettes, etc that already have them and we've all seen those build to absurd scales. Why would anyone do such a thing?? Could it be that someone likes a particular look, but doesn't want all the downsides of what the factory offered?

As for the dimwits who would tell me "I ruined the car". That's his simple minded opinion and means nothing. In 40 years presumably the LS car will still be driving around because it has something to offer to the next generation of car nuts. The purist car? Locked away in a family garage with no one to drive it or rotting away in a yard.

I'm sure the owner of this car would laugh in the face of a purist if they said he "ruined" this car:

 

[72BBSwinger]

And the gayest flare ever put on a Challenger award goes to^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Hellcat Cuda]

Dude, your arguments are some of the more irrational I've seen; makes no sense and I choose to not deal with that crap. Given your "atheist" posting on this forum rather than a "Atheists are us" forum, it appears you're just one of those who love to argue and I'll not likely ever understand, much less agree with your point of view.

My apologies to the OP for getting side tracked with this dimwitted conversation...

Its the attitude, you see it in every purists post on this subject. Its very clear that they believe an LS mopar is the worst thing. I believe I've seen one of the geniuses refer to it as being akin to inbreeding. The funny and sad thing is that this ridiculous mopar or no car nonsense is gonna lead to a lot of dead mopars. In a world of warrantied 750hp monsters and 400hp base models, who wants 300hp, 55mph highway, and 10mpg? Or to spend egregious prices for a new hemi swap because the community was so resistant to benefits of having a reasonably priced LS swap option.Given all the that, the obvious question is: Would you rather it rot in a junkyard? That's where a lot of them may be headed when they no longer offering anything to the new enthusiast. Say 5-10yrs you'll be getting new 5.0s for 8-10k. Then its good luck and good bye to the budget a-body mopars.I guess if you thought more, you might see this point of view ;)

 

[magnumdust]

Dude, your arguments are some of the more irrational I've seen; makes no sense and I choose to not deal with that crap. Given your "atheist" posting on this forum rather than a "Atheists are us" forum, it appears you're just one of those who love to argue and I'll not likely ever understand, much less agree with your point of view.

My apologies to the OP for getting side tracked with this dimwitted conversation...

Which arguments are irrational and make no sense? Nothing I have said is irrational and they all make complete sense. I get it, you're wrong and don't want to admit it. The truth hurts(especially when you've already invested in a new hemi), but instead of moving on with being wrong you want to have a fit and accuse me of posting for the sake of arguing simply because you have a prejudice.

PS: by that logic, aren't the christians here who post their religion specific gibberish here to just "argue"? Or is that okay because currently a reality based world view is not the polled majority in this country and all disagreeing views must be discounted as "offensive"?

 

[MuuMuu101]

These are "tuner cars and race cars" by definition of whats being done to them. what would you say give/take 5-10% of this forum build these cars as 100% oem for shows while the rest build street/strip cars, tuned cruisers, the rare roadrace setup, or pure strip cars Why do an LS in an RX7? Why do an LS into anything old? Afterall, there are plenty of second hand camaros, corvettes, etc that already have them and we've all seen those build to absurd scales. Why would anyone do such a thing?? Could it be that someone likes a particular look, but doesn't want all the downsides of what the factory offered? As for the dimwits who would tell me "I ruined the car". That's his simple minded opinion and means nothing. In 40 years presumably the LS car will still be driving around because it has something to offer to the next generation of car nuts. The purist car? Locked away in a family garage with no one to drive it or rotting away in a yard. I'm sure the owner of this car would laugh in the face of a purist if they said he "ruined" this car:

Have you ever hung out with the import crowd? Have you ever talked to an RX7 enthusiast about throwing in an LS into it? They will chew you out to bits. The RX7 mentality believe the Rotary is the Holy Trinity of life. The only reason why they throw LS engines into 240sx's is because it's cost effective and less complicated vs throwing in a turbo 4. Now you might be thinking, "Thanks for supporting my argument." Here's where things turn around... The main difference between a 240sx and a Barracuda (or any mopar for that matter) is that Nissan made approximately 260,000 of them in the states. Look on CL and you can find plenty of them running in the $500-1000 range. They're throw away cars. Why do you think they use them in drifting all the time. Part of it is they were engineered well, but the other part is because they're dirt cheap and another one is waiting to be pulled out of the junkyard if you crash yours. The next time you crash a mopar, tell me how easy it will be to find a very close replacement. I'm talking about same body style, options, condition (physically and mechanically), and within a 2 year span of your car.

And as much as I love pro-touring mopars, that one in particular is my least favorite. First off, it had a shady history and was possibly an original 440-6 pack car (someone may have swapped VINs in its lifetime). Even if it wasn't original, it already had a 440-6 in there and was restored to a very high caliber. I believe it was also sublime green before. Second off, they change the suspension and chassis completely and strayed far from the original chassis and suspension design. To me, that's a slap in the face to the Chrysler Engineers of the late 60's and early 70's. With their mentality back then, they'd probably still be able to school a bunch of engineers in today's day and age. Third, they stuck an LS engine into it because it was "cheaper" when the owner through 10's of thousands of dollars on the rest of the car. It was already a pretty pricey car to begin with. There is nothing "Mopar" about that "Challenger" except for parts of the body. It's just another case of a guy who has deeper pockets than brains. He could have probably built an identical looking Challenger, that would have performed just as well utilizing stock-like style suspension (or at least a tubular K), and a Hemi for cheaper or just as much.

 

[HardVG]

This thread appears to have gone a little of topic. As far as the 8 speed auto goes, it is probably the most significant factor in turning the late model V6 cars from 9+ second 0-60 mph cars into something closer to 7 seconds and almost on par with the old 5 speed auto 5.7 hemi cars. That said the 6.1 with a 5 speed auto will fun 0-60 mph in under 5 seconds with a 5 speed auto in a late model luxury barge. Getting the 8 speed to work will be the biggest challenge, even the old 5 speed is more work than most people care to undertake.

 

[Mac67Cuda]

Thanks for bring it back to focus! It really digressed.

 

[magnumdust]

Have you ever hung out with the import crowd? Have you ever talked to an RX7 enthusiast about throwing in an LS into it? They will chew you out to bits. The RX7 mentality believe the Rotary is the Holy Trinity of life. The only reason why they throw LS engines into 240sx's is because it's cost effective and less complicated vs throwing in a turbo 4. Now you might be thinking, "Thanks for supporting my argument." Here's where things turn around... The main difference between a 240sx and a Barracuda (or any mopar for that matter) is that Nissan made approximately 260,000 of them in the states. Look on CL and you can find plenty of them running in the $500-1000 range. They're throw away cars. Why do you think they use them in drifting all the time. Part of it is they were engineered well, but the other part is because they're dirt cheap and another one is waiting to be pulled out of the junkyard if you crash yours. The next time you crash a mopar, tell me how easy it will be to find a very close replacement. I'm talking about same body style, options, condition (physically and mechanically), and within a 2 year span of your car.

And as much as I love pro-touring mopars, that one in particular is my least favorite. First off, it had a shady history and was possibly an original 440-6 pack car (someone may have swapped VINs in its lifetime). Even if it wasn't original, it already had a 440-6 in there and was restored to a very high caliber. I believe it was also sublime green before. Second off, they change the suspension and chassis completely and strayed far from the original chassis and suspension design. To me, that's a slap in the face to the Chrysler Engineers of the late 60's and early 70's. With their mentality back then, they'd probably still be able to school a bunch of engineers in today's day and age. Third, they stuck an LS engine into it because it was "cheaper" when the owner through 10's of thousands of dollars on the rest of the car. It was already a pretty pricey car to begin with. There is nothing "Mopar" about that "Challenger" except for parts of the body. It's just another case of a guy who has deeper pockets than brains. He could have probably built an identical looking Challenger, that would have performed just as well utilizing stock-like style suspension (or at least a tubular K), and a Hemi for cheaper or just as much.

Actually the 240sx is so popular because of the steering angles work so well for drifting. AND the V8 swaps aren't simply a cost factor. The V8 is a better engine for drifting because of the low end torque. The turbo 4cylinder drift cars have to be kept revving to the moon to make the tire spinning power. The 240sx as a drift car has nothing to do with the numbers produced. Otherwise there would be a whole lot more of 80s/early 90s muscle car crapola turned into drift cars.

And which Rx7 enthusiasts? There are a lot of people who prefer the v8 swapped ones because the rotary engine(while cool), has some serious flaws. I'll also guarantee people won't be losing their damn minds over the v8 swapped rx7s like people here do about LS swapped mopars.

I hate to break it to you, but that would mean most of the high dollar protouring mopars are a "slap in the face" to chrysler engineers. A large number of people go to the alterkation suspensions, non-chrysler transmissions, and enough aftermarket parts so that even if the block was chrysler, nothing else is. One could even go as far as to question the validity of the new hemi as a mopar engine. After all it was created during the mercedes owned days and now fiat owned.

As for "schooling" people today. Go ask wracks71, he did both the full tilt torsion bar suspension and the alterkation. He insists the car handles better with the alterkation. The engineers of the 60s/70s(of all makes/models) were fairly limited given the technology. I doubt they school anyone. Especially at this point in time when sports cars/muscle cars have gotten so good.

Just because you're spending buckets of money doesn't mean the budget is unlimited. I'm sure the LS worked out better for the sake of cheaper to build, cheaper to get one that's all aluminum, and producing the same if not better results as the hemi. $6200 can be a hard pill to swallow for a bare aluminum 6.1 block.

 

[MuuMuu101]

This thread appears to have gone a little of topic. As far as the 8 speed auto goes, it is probably the most significant factor in turning the late model V6 cars from 9+ second 0-60 mph cars into something closer to 7 seconds and almost on par with the old 5 speed auto 5.7 hemi cars. That said the 6.1 with a 5 speed auto will fun 0-60 mph in under 5 seconds with a 5 speed auto in a late model luxury barge. Getting the 8 speed to work will be the biggest challenge, even the old 5 speed is more work than most people care to undertake.

I agree. I'll shut up with the LS crap. Anyways, with regards to the 8 speed connected to the 5.7L, your one of your issues is going to reside with there are no bellhousings available. The current 3.6L has a different bolt pattern, so to say, than the Hemi's. You may need a bellhousing adapter plate in order to get them to fit together. On top of that, one of the main reason why they didn't attach the 8 speeds to the hemi's sooner was because it couldn't handle the torque. After you have them mated, your next problem will probably be with getting a computer to get them interacting properly.

Lucky enough, 2015 brings Hemi's and 8 speeds together for almost all models. So in 3-5 years from now, they may be common enough to find on CL.