67-68 GTS Fender Badge Placement (Again!)

[Dana67Dart]

I know it has been asked (and I have asked) and I have searched and found several examples of dimensions, here on FABO and one the net.

BUT...

1. None have certain crucial dimension
2. Many are not from a KNOWN OEM front fender

The reason I'm being so picky for KNOWN OEM fender is there are so many restored cars out there with the fenders replaced that the placement is a bit all over the place.
(Please be sure you truly know the fender is OEM, like it was a parents car, or you bought it new, or it was your life long neighbors car that you know the history of.)

Thanks in advance

This is where I'm at right now. I'm very happy with the look and my template works great.

Some dimensions I need are:

If from a 68 GTS but not a 383 that's ok I'll take what you can provide

Fender lip to center of the T at the style line
(This can be done with a tape measure, at the style line is important as the edge of the fender is not vertical and the style line gives a consistent point of reference)

The dimension between the G and the T

Preferably with a caliper

The dimension from the center of the bottom of the T to the top of the 8

 

[Professor Fate]

Okay, I know it's not caliper- measured and just a tape measure, but the measurements shown in this thread are from a known original sheetmetal '68 340 GTS (complete with rust, scratches and dents).
68 GTS Dart badges
Hope it helps somewhat- it's somewhat inaccessible right now with things getting tucked away for winter hibernation; if I can climb around some stuff and get at it later I'll try to get some more specific measurements for you, as well as compare to some other used sheetmetal I have in storage to compare it with (as far as actual consistency of placement goes, +/-).
Think I've even got a bare fender that I could make a rubbing of the mounting holes that I could send you if that would help.
Might be a day or two though.

 

[matthon]

Painters tape over the fender, poke holes and mark the edges/body lines.

Any idea how the factory drilled the holes, full fender or small template?

 

[Dana67Dart]

Okay, I know it's not caliper- measured and just a tape measure, but the measurements shown in this thread are from a known original sheetmetal '68 340 GTS (complete with rust, scratches and dents).
68 GTS Dart badges
Hope it helps somewhat- it's somewhat inaccessible right now with things getting tucked away for winter hibernation; if I can climb around some stuff and get at it later I'll try to get some more specific measurements for you, as well as compare to some other used sheetmetal I have in storage to compare it with (as far as actual consistency of placement goes, +/-).
Think I've even got a bare fender that I could make a rubbing of the mounting holes that I could send you if that would help.
Might be a day or two though.

Thank you, I'm not in a huge rush.

I have the photos from the post you reference and it's helpful. Having the top edge of the tape just under the style line (blue line) to the center of the T will get me with in 0.050 of a good number (I suspect it will come out to about 6.75" to the center of the T) I have seen them 4" and 8 " they are all over the place.

As for bare Sheetmetal... the holes of the T are inline with each other so if you put some tape on the fender and draw a like from the top hole to the bottom hole, then measure along the style line to the new line that would be the center of the T as far as I'm concerned.

Painters tape over the fender, poke holes and mark the edges/body lines.

Any idea how the factory drilled the holes, full fender or small template?

Its better to mark the hole than poke through. sometimes the poked hole is too jagged to get really good dimensions from.

MY gut says in 67, being an after thought, they used a template on existing fenders, and welded up the GT badge holes and the V8 hole at the front of the fender (that would be interesting to investigate!) might have been a paper template, which could explain some of the hap-hazard placements. In 68 I bet they had the holes punched into the fenders at time of fender manufacturer (Its a new fender for 68 so add the holes and delete the GT and V8 holes in the die, make 10% more than sales forecasts predict and boom!)

seems like they could have placed the GTS and 383 to cover some if not all of the GT badge holes?

 

[Dana67Dart]

This puts the centerline of the T at 6.75" along the style line from the fender edge and I can use the existing GT holes to assist in vertical alignment (although the style line does that 98%)

From the Post mentioned above

 

[Professor Fate]

I'll do what I can in the next couple of days!

 

[matthon]

Been looking for years for info on emblem holes.

When was the antenna hole punched out?

I imagine all the holes were knocked out before paint.

 

[Dana67Dart]

When was the antenna hole punched out?

I imagine all the holes were knocked out before paint

here is my guess on trim holes on fenders doors etc.

The sales team makes an estimate on how many of each model they will sell. They order the correct number for the coming production year. BUT the fenders are still being produced throughout the year so changes in quantity can be made. so how many fenders are there????

All passenger fenders got a Pentastar so those are not counted here

For this example this will represent the passenger side fender only


67 Base model (radio delete, no trim and 6 cyl) = no holes
67 Base model (no trim and 6 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna

67 Base model (radio delete, no trim and 8 cyl) = 2 holes for V8 emblem
67 Base model (no trim and 8 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna, 2 holes for V8 emblem

67 270 model (radio delete, yes trim and 6 cyl) = 7 holes for trim
67 270 model (no trim and 6 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna 7 holes for trim

67 270 model (radio delete, yes trim and 8 cyl) = 7 holes for trim, 2 holes each side for V8 emblem
67 270 model (no trim and 8 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna, 7 holes for trim, 2 holes each side for V8 emblem

67 GT model (radio delete, yes trim and 6 cyl) = 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim
67 GT model (no trim and 6 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim

67 GT model (radio delete, yes trim and standard 8 cyl) = 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 2 holes for V8 emblem, 2 holes for GT badge
67 GT model (no trim and standard 8 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna, 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 2 holes for V8 emblem, 2 holes for GT badge

67 GT model (radio delete, yes trim and HP 8 cyl) = 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 2 holes for 273 FOUR BARREL emblem, 2 holes for GT badge
67 GT model (no trim and HP 8 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna, 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 2 holes for 273 FOUR BARREL emblem, 2 holes for GT badge

67 GTS model (radio delete, yes trim and 8 cyl) = 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 3 holes for 383 FOUR BARREL emblem, 6 holes for GTS Letters
67 GTS model (no trim and 8 cyl) = 1 hole for antenna, 3 holes for turn signal, 6 holes for trim, 3 holes for 383 FOUR BARREL emblem, 6 holes for GTS Letters


So that represents 16 unique fenders.

NOW maybe.... they had a post process punch setup to punch the holes in the fenders as needed?

I have a 270 fender and a GT fender and a base fender. The base fender has no holes the 270 and GT fender has holes that are punched perfectly round and square inside, no signs of a drill.

And you wonder why they went to decals and adhesive emblems starting around 69 up

 

[matthon]

I think it's more streamlined.
Car is ordered, for dealer inventory or by individual.

IBM card is created, everything else is generated then, SPD, VIN, fender tag, and broadcast sheets.

Each area gets a broadcast sheet, engine/drive train area, trim shop, body shop, paint shop, wheels/tires, etc.

Joe Schmo in the body shop looks at broadcast sheet and punches holes in the fender. Maybe a template is used, my thought is a universal punch machine and Joe pulls a different trigger or two.

But Joe is just manually lining the punch thing on the fender, he had a liquid lunch, or the dyes are newly installed wonky, so mistakes are made.

Paint shop gets it, and well, paints the panels.

Stainless and emblems are applied at the next stop, and so on.

Explains mistakes, and time it takes to launch new body styles, models, etc.

Most a-bodies and other models had emblems on removable panels, fenders, hood, trunk. Easy to punch on the fly, everything else is standard.

 

[Professor Fate]

Okay, here we go.
Got out to the shop for a little bit this afternoon and got these measurements for you-
First up is an original '68 340 GTS left fender.

I ran a straight edge vertically through the centers of the "T" mounting holes, and then held the tape measure (top edge in pic) along the body crease. Comes in right at 6 3/4".
Next, since the outlines of the letters are still pretty visible, and you expressed an interest in the spacing between the letters, I took this shot with the tape along the bottom of where the letters were:

Next up, is a '68 GTS 383 left fender in all it's rusty, horribly crusty, but original glory.

Same method of measuring as in the first picture, this time coming out to a little less - a bit closer to 6 5/8".
Forgive the crummy pictures and awkward camera angle, this one was a pain to get at. Had to limber up my contortioning skills.
But since it was a 383, I thought I'd try to get a shot of the "383 4 barrel" mounting holes while I was at it.
So there's this one, showing the distance to the hole closest to the fender trailing edge-

And this one showing it's distance below the body crease:

Looks like about 2 1/4".
Again, sorry for the crappy angles.
Hope these help.

Now, just for sh*ts and giggles, here's a couple of shots of the mounting holes from a '68 GT left fender:

Again, same as before, measuring through the centerline of the "T" holes at the body crease.
Looks to be right near the 6 3/4 mark again. Interesting. The "G" and "T" positioning is the same on both models, GT and GTS (at least on the left sides).
So, between these two examples and the Previous GTS that I posted, it looks like the go-to measurement to the "T" centerline is going to be "loosely" at 6 3/4". A template was most likely used, but it's placement probably allowed a slight bit of variance.
On a slightly different tack, I kinda started wondering how Grand Spalding handled the "GSS"s... When they removed the "T", did they weld up the holes and repaint or did they just count on the new "S" to cover the old "T" holes, and leave them in place?... Most likely, but still- Hmmm.

 

[Dana67Dart]

On a slightly different tack, I kinda started wondering how Grand Spalding handled the "GSS"s... When they removed the "T", did they weld up the holes and repaint or did they just count on the new "S" to cover the old "T" holes, and leave them in place?... Most likely, but still- Hmmm.

Weld and touchup. OR lead and touchup

OR they made Special S's with a slightly different shape that would us the existing holes

 

[Dana67Dart]

Looks to be right near the 6 3/4 mark again

Thank you for those measurements. They are right in line with each other and others I have seen / measured

The spacing between the 383 and the style line is off by 0.250 from what I expected.

I have it at 2.474 ( call it 2.5") and you're showing 2.25". 2.474 puts the top of the 8, 3/4" from the bottom of the T. You're measurement puts it at 1/2"

How confident are you that your fenders are OEM?

my 3/4' came from several Googled photos and who knows about them!

The "G" and "T" positioning is the same on both models, GT and GTS (at least on the left sides).

If they centered everything on the T then the basic spacing would make sense that the S was just added after.

Professor, You do good work!

 

[Professor Fate]

How confident are you that your fenders are OEM?

The yellow GTS in my original post, I have owned off and on since about 1980, and was familiar with it prior to that.
The copper-colored fender in the first pictures of this post was from a GTS I bought in 1976, sold when life got in the way, and bought back the hulk after the next owner wrapped it around a telephone pole.
The dark green 383 I bought back in about '78 or 9, sold at the same time as the copper one, and bought back about 5 years ago after it got hit in front, had a garage collapse on top of it, and then sat under a pine grove for about 25 years... still not sure what I'm going to do with that one, not much left of it.
Regardless, I can account for all the sheetmetal shown for over 90% of the cars' lifespans.
Also, remember these are all '68s- I see you did a compilation of '67 fender possibilities. If you are looking at doing a '67, I can't guarantee the emblem placements are the same, even though the emblems themselves are the same. I have no '67s to compare to.

 

[Dana67Dart]

Since there are so few 67s I'll go with the 68 numbers as they probably came from the 67 anyway.

I would say your GTSs are the real deal. Not likely 3 - 10 year old cars would have had both fenders replaced and then during your tenure you know 90 percent of their history, and again unlikely both fenders would have been replaced on 3 cars.


I'm convinced your fenders and measurements are spot on.

Thank you so much.

I have a new template ready to print with the 1/2" GTS to 383 spacing I'll see what it looks like.

 

[Professor Fate]

Since there are so few 67s I'll go with the 68 numbers as they probably came from the 67 anyway.

You're undoubtably right, but I felt I had to throw that disclaimer in there because, well, you know Ma Mopar, and what happens when you assume anything!

 

[matthon]

I was today years old when I discovered the 67 Dart GT had a completely different emblem/engine callout than the 67 GTS, or 68 GT.

Also, check out the placement of the 68 GTS emblems in the press release.
Same as production but must have had a 'bend' lower.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I was today years old when I discovered the 67 Dart GT had a completely different emblem/engine callout than the 67 GTS, or 68 GT.

Its funny...

GT was a trim package...

67 GT 6 cyl GT badge on the side of fender under the antenna, no other call outs

67 GT 8 cyl (2BBL) GT badge on the side of fender under the antenna, V8 at front of fender

67 GT 8 cyl (4BBL) GT badge on the side of fender under the antenna, 273 FOUR BARREL at front of fender

67 GTS 8 cyl (4BBL) GTS letters on the side of fender under the antenna, 383 FOUR BARREL directly below the letters

I'm not well versed on 68 GT and GTS

68 GT had the 2 letters on the side of fender under the antenna (I don't know what engines were available with GT trim in 68)
68 GTS 8 cyl (340 4bbl) had the 3 letters on the side of fender under the antenna, no engine call out
68 GTS 8 cyl (383 4bbl) had the 3 letters on the side of fender under the antenna, 383 FOUR BARREL directly below the letters

 

[Dana67Dart]

Bottom of T to top of 8 spacing

3/4" spacing on the left (or first)
1/2" spacing on the right (or second) This aligns with the 2.25 spacing from style line to left most post that is behind the 3, that the Professor measured.

 

[Dana67Dart]

I'm still looking for additional known OEM measurements especially between the T and 8 --- 67 preferred but 68 accepted