71 340 Compression Test

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1badfish67

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Prior to pulling the bone stock 340 out of my 67 Barracuda Fastback I ran a dry (no oil squirted in cyl) compression test on the engine with all plugs removed. Range was between 150-164 lbs which is about 8.5% difference. My question is what is considered normal?
This is a mid year 1971 motor by the dates on the block and intake. I am trying to decide whether to go rebuild the engine or not? Not going to drag race the car. Going to car shows and cruises etc. Might take it to track for a couple of passes to just see what it might do. Plan on going to Edlebrock Performer Air Gap intake, Holley 770 Street Avanger, headers with 270 or 280H Comp cam . This is a 4spd car with 489 rearend.

Appreciate any thoughts ideas. Spoke to one speed shop near me and cost would be near $8,300.00 if they did the rebuild.

Thanks
 
I would call Jim at Racer Brown and get a custom cam. Same money for a better grind. I'm not a fan of comp.
 
bone stock 340 out of my 67
Those are not bad numbers. Unless I see smoke of any kind, hear knocking or noises of any kind; I'd run it like it is. Recheck those pressures warm and dry, then wet. Check oil pressures cold and hot, check the cooling system. If it all looks good, why spend the bucks? They don't come broke from the factory, it apparently had "some" care in it's life; go for it. You might get thousands of miles of use and no major worries. Spend the money when you need to; all else is investment with little return.
 
Agree... those numbers are o.k The engine will make a lot of miles...in the future. So drive your car...and enjoy

Greetings Juergen
 
Numbers look good to me. 150+ is healthy. Anything more than 170+ and you start running the risk of not being able to run pump gas. I would run it as is. Why spend 8G+ when it seems pretty healthy.

If you make any changes. Make sure to keep DCR up and match gears to it.
 
Thanks guys for the info. I did hear a light tap in the engine. Sounded like it was coming from timing cover. It was high pitch kinda like a lifter tap but not as loud. I was was planning on replacing-timing chain and gears with cam/lifter upgrade. I had a 280H Comp in a 73 Nova 350 and got about 200k mi out of the engine.
It also ran about 205 psi on compression with 10.5:1 TRW flats in it. This 71 was supposed to be 10.25:1 so I was expecting more psi. One of you guys are right about the pump gas. Couldnt shut off the old Nova without putting in 4th gear and letting out clutch. Had to run at least 93 octane.
Thanks again for the advice I do appreciate it. Always helps to ask if you're unsure about it.
 
205 with a 280 cam? I would have that gauge checked.

The stock compression ratings were quite a bit higher than reality. We have a fresh 340 with a real 10:1 SCR and a 268 advertised cam duration with 4-5 degrees cam advance and the compression is around 160 psi.
 
Your cylinder pressure is indicating around 10.2Scr. With the stock 268/276/114 cam with an ICA of 66* your Dcr comes in at around 8.00
This puts you near the limit of pump-gas. And near the limit of cam sizing. A bigger cam will likely require a bigger TC and 3.55s or better, to overcome a softening bottom end, unless your Scr is increased to keep pace. So you are kindof in an all-or-nothing situation. The all being; engine,TC,and gears,until the tranny gives up at least..... Of course the increased power will require more traction,cuz what's the sense of spinning all the way to 60 or more mph. Thankfully the Barracuda will accept 295s no problem. Well except for moving the springs, and either custom 10 inch wheels or a narrowed rear, or both.Of course the beast still won't hook,so now you are looking at springs,shocks,and possibly,traction aides. Finally it hooks, but now she's getting some serious speed in a hurry, and you find out the stock suspension and brakes are not adequate.
Long story short is this; $8300 is just the down payment.
Don't get me wrong; I'm all for 400 hp. The 67 to 69 Barracuda can be an excellent chassis for 400 hp, but I just wanted to shine some light on the road you are going down, having made the trip myself. In Canada, back in the early 2000s, it was easy to spend $16,000Can on the full deal. Not including original purchase price, or paint and body repairs.Just upgrades.
No wonder I'm broke today........
 
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sorry guys ...if I ask something that could sound stupid...

How do you know the value of the CR ...because of the Compression test numbers ?
I am asking, because I have 175-180 psi Cranking pressure with a cold engine...could that be a sign of a very high CR ? i.e above 10.5 or even more.
Greetings Juergen
 
The numbers by themselves can be very misleading. But if you throw in the ICA,Or have the cam specs, and displacement, then it is possible to back calculate the Scr, from the Dcr and cylinder pressure. It is not exact. But it will usually ballpark it pretty close.
Your numbers would be on the high side for iron heads and pumpgas, but still have some headroom with aluminum.

What this means is that it is very possible to have high cylinder pressure with a low compression ratio and a small,short-duration cam, that HAS to run premium.
It also means that you can have a high compression engine with a big,long-duration cam that runs on 87E10.
High cylinder pressures are desirable at low operating rpms (like DDs), cuz the engine will make good torque, off the line, and stands a chance at making some decent mpgs.But the pressure has to stay within the limits of the intended fuel to suppress detonation. If you exceed the limit, then you have to pull out timing. And in most cases the engine will lose power faster when pulling timing than if the pressure hadda been a little lower. So for DDs and Streeters,it is usually wiser to stay on the lower side of the pressure limit. Weekend warriors can walk the line, and racecars can find fuel for nearly any reasonable pressure numbers.
Almost nothing sucks as bad as a LC engine that won't take throttle, even on hi-test, unless it is a hi-perf street engine that needs to have the timing pulled out of it, cuz hi-test just isn't hi enough..
 
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Thank you for your fast answer...
so I will make a compression test with a warm /hot engine
if the values are in the 180-190 psi range...it would be a sign of higher CR.. Is there a formula to calculate ?
Greetings Juergen

BTW what does ICA mean Dcr I know... Scr also..
 
205 with a 280 cam? I would have that gauge checked.

The stock compression ratings were quite a bit higher than reality. We have a fresh 340 with a real 10:1 SCR and a 268 advertised cam duration with 4-5 degrees cam advance and the compression is around 160 psi.
I ran the comp test with multiple gages and they were within 3psi of each other.
Besides the 280H .480/.480 lift cam I had also swapped out the original heads with a friend for his small chambered 67 Camaro 302 Cid heads. He wanted to install a small B&M blower on the 302 and wanted to lower his base compression. This was a SB Chevy that I was referring to with the 205 psi.
Engine is out of the little cuda now, getting her ready for paint shop. Going to pull a valve cover this evening to get head casting numbers and determine if possible what the intake valve sizes are.
 
Thank you for your fast answer...
so I will make a compression test with a warm /hot engine
if the values are in the 180-190 psi range...it would be a sign of higher CR.. Is there a formula to calculate ?
Greetings Juergen

BTW what does ICA mean Dcr I know... Scr also..
ICA is Intake Closing Angle.... which is when the intake valve closes, expressed in crankshaft degrees after Bottom Dead Center on the compression stroke.

I am not aware of an exact formula... it varies a lot with the ICA, which varies with duration and cam timing. As an approximation for stock cams in engine like 318's, I have used 20 psi X (SCR-1) and it has been fairly close.
 
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...o.k. as far as I understood ... when I have for example
205 psi and I divide this number by 20.... I am having a CR of around 10.25 : 1 right ?

Greetings Juergen
 
That only works for certain cams so is not an 100% accurate conversion from compression pressure to SCR. And I made a mistake above anyway (which I corrected). My old rule was to divide the psi by 20 and then add 1. So 200 psi would be more like 11:1 SCR.

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary... which is an American expression saying that your results may be different)
 
Well I got the 340 out of the car. I found something interesting. Block date shows 6/71. Intake shows 12/71. I just pulled valve cover and head number is 3671587 also has 'AAWJ' 360 on it. What I have found so far on the net is these are 1973 heads. So looks like small 1.88" intake valves. Looks like things can sit around for a while on the shelves. So the 8.... CR seems logical and this is the chocked down 245 hp version.
Looks like I am going to give her more spunk and rebuild. Is it true that these heads were designed to be able to cut new valve seats (2.02") into the heads.
Can anyone recommend a maximum CR to run on say 91 to 93 octane pump gas? Could 10:1 work.
There is a racetrack a few miles from my house and a station that carries race fuels including what I hear is called '100-Low Lead.

Thanks

Everyone who has commented. Good information.
 
made a compression test today... with a warm /hot engine...... 185- 190 psi
only cylinder No. 4 has a little less.. 175 psi...

will buy some valve cleaner stuff tomorrow..perhaps there is some carbon on the valves
Greetings Juergen
 
Can anyone recommend a maximum CR to run on say 91 to 93 octane pump gas? Could 10:1 work.Thanks
Everyone who has commented. Good information.

It has been said many times that 9.5 is the highest Scr to run with iron heads, at sealevel. The problem with that is it doesn't leave much room for a performance cam, before the Dcr is a runaway train to being a slug off the line. The usual work-around is a hi-stall TC and higher, numerically, gears; like 3.91s or better. So again it comes down to your intended useage.
A racecar is gonna run race gears (like 4.30s), to trap at an optimum rpm. It will also run whatever TC it takes to blast off the line. And a race car has better fuel available to it. So, in this case compression can be increased to optimize the cam, which are optimized to the head flow.
A DD will run a much lower gear like 3.23s, and a very low stall TC like 1800(or less). In this case a cam will be chosen to suit the DD needs, like the teener 240*. So now the Static compression(Scr) can be much lower, so the Dcr doesn't get into detonation.
A streeter is an unusual thing in that every combo has to be optimized for the user. That means it has to do reasonably well under a multitude of different uses.Like straight line, and hiway, and bombing around, and maybe hauling a trailer now and then. So....... sometimes the combo has to be biased one way or another, in other words sacrifices have to be made.
So you have to sit down and make some hard decisions, as to what you are willing to give up.
And one of the first ones will be,where do you want the power to be? If you want big power, you have to have big airflow.That leads to big heads, big revs,big cubes, or supercharging.Those are your choices.
If you are focused on using the 340, then big cubes are out. If your budget is limited then supercharging is out.,and probably a stroker as well. So that leaves just big heads and big revs. Big heads can be worth one or two, or possibly three cam sizes. That makes headflow very desireable on a streeter. Cuz running a really big cam on the street, with all the attendant junk that goes with it, a super annoying experience. Sure for a weekend warrior a 300plus cam with 4.30s and a 3500TC will be big fun. For a while.But if you can make the same power on a 285* cam and now use 3.73s and a 2800TC, that is much more fun. Hours and hours atta time,fun and day after day,fun.
The point is; choosing the Scr is not the first thing on the to-do list. Choosing how much power you really need/want, and where in the rpm band to put it, is. And then choosing the support works, and then Scr to make it all work.
For a street-340,your power choice is from about .8 to 1.2 horsepower per cubic inch. Less than .8 will likely not satisfy and more than 1.2 will get expensive in a hurry. The stock 1971 340s at about 300 hp, were .88 hp/cid, and 1.2 is 408hp.

FWIW
Having enough power to break 295s loose at 35mph(on kickdown), and a small enough gear to cruise the hiway for a couple of hours atta time, is IMO, a delightful combo. And it doesn't take 408hp,or 4.30s, to break 'em loose. And 3.55s are a nice all-round street gear. They will put you right at 2200 or so rpm at 35mph in second gear. Very comfortable. At kickdown, the tach will jump to 3800(plus slip), and the car will explode. And 3.55s will cruise at 65mph =2870 with 27s.
If you build the engine to work with the combo (your combo;work it out with whatever parameters you choose), it is hard to go wrong.
I run a stick car with a GV overdrive. I have run just about every rear gear you can imagine, and with a clutch, I have an adjustable "stall". But my favorite has always been the 3.55s. They do no-one-thing GREAT!,but they do every-thing just right.
If you put the power in the heads, you can run a streetable cam and have loads of fun, and buy your gas the same place you buy your lawnmower gas. How sweet is that?!
 
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Well I got the 340 out of the car. I found something interesting. Block date shows 6/71. Intake shows 12/71. I just pulled valve cover and head number is 3671587 also has 'AAWJ' 360 on it. What I have found so far on the net is these are 1973 heads. So looks like small 1.88" intake valves. Looks like things can sit around for a while on the shelves. So the 8.... CR seems logical and this is the chocked down 245 hp version.
Looks like I am going to give her more spunk and rebuild. Is it true that these heads were designed to be able to cut new valve seats (2.02") into the heads.
Can anyone recommend a maximum CR to run on say 91 to 93 octane pump gas? Could 10:1 work.
There is a racetrack a few miles from my house and a station that carries race fuels including what I hear is called '100-Low Lead.

Thanks

Everyone who has commented. Good information.

Yes, the heads can take a 2.02 valve. I have them myself on my J heads. 2.02 valves, a bowl cut and clean up does wonders for flow. Makes the heads easily support 400 HP. As for compression. Dynamic compression matters much more than static compression. With iron heads, max on pump premium is 7.5:1 dynamic compression. Pay attention to quench as well. As it's just as important as compression ratio.

Race fuel gets expensive if you wanna drive more than on friday/saturday nights. 100 low-lead is aviation gasoline. It's fine to run in vehicles (up for debate according to some) just make sure you get hardened valve seats when you get new valves.
 
100 low-lead is aviation gasoline. It's fine to run in vehicles (up for debate according to some) just make sure you get hardened valve seats when you get new valves.
FWIW.... Only worry about the hardened seats for regular pump fuels, not for 100LL AVGas. 100LL has MORE lead in it than leaded automotive fuels ever had; 100LL is 'low lead' only in reference to the older lead AVGas.
 
With iron heads, max on pump premium is 7.5:1 dynamic compression. Pay attention to quench as well. As it's just as important as compression ratio.
Mmmmmm... well I ran 8.2-8.3 DCR on the street years ago with iron heads and quench and premium fuel... ran over 90k miles that way. I di have to be careful with ignition timing. A 7.5:1 DCR limit is way to low and unnecessarily limiting in my view. Use quench and small combustion chambers and don't fear going into the low 8's with iron heads....IMHO.
 
FWIW.... Only worry about the hardened seats for regular pump fuels, not for 100LL AVGas. 100LL has MORE lead in it than leaded automotive fuels ever had; 100LL is 'low lead' only in reference to the older lead AVGas.

I know people who have run the 100LL and they recommend the hardened valve seats. As do I. I know the 100LL has more gas than regular leaded gas ever did. But it's more than capable of being run in a vehicle.

Mmmmmm... well I ran 8.2-8.3 DCR on the street years ago with iron heads and quench and premium fuel... ran over 90k miles that way. I di have to be careful with ignition timing. A 7.5:1 DCR limit is way to low and unnecessarily limiting in my view. Use quench and small combustion chambers and don't fear going into the low 8's with iron heads....IMHO.

I'm not sure at what elevation/fuel you ran that. But the rule of thumb I've always used is 7.5:1 on iron, 8.5:1 on aluminum. This is safe for 91 octane. As you mention, you had to be careful with ignition timing. Of course you can run more DCR if you want to risk bad timing/fuel problems. Which might be fine if you are sure your timing is good. That you won't run into any fuel problems. And have access to higher quality fuels at all times. Or you can run less DCR and be safer with timing and fuel. Remember, 1 point of compression is really only good for 10-20 horse, depending on the setup of course. I would rather be down 5-15 horse from 8.2 DCR to 7.5 DCR and not have to worry about timing, overheating, fuel, etc. Than get that extra 5-10 horse. Especially in a street vehicle. If it was a race vehicle? I wouldn't worry, cause it would be on methanol.
 
OK on all above. And agreed that you can target a range of DCR's. The lower numbers are what I consider very safe numbers, and practically anyone can put an engine together and run garbage fuel in it, never tune it up, and never have an issues. But being too conservative seems to me to throw away a significant benefit for a street engine: low RPM torque.

The extra HP is indeed small but that is not what we are after with higher CR and not what is of value on the street; it is the low RPM torque and the widening of the lower end of the torque band. If this benefit did not come with added CR, then we would all run 6:1 SCR and never worry over detonation!

And FWIW, the engine I mentioned would ping on regular and so I knew I was running it as high in CR as I could on the street with that setup and my tuning abilities. It ran a cam with 254/264 advertised duration which most people would tell you would be a detonation problem with 10.3:1 SCR. But I always credited the quench with buying me some good margin against detonation. And straight up cam timing.
 
I'm a big believer in quench too.
And there is no good substitute for hitting the skinny at sub-2000rpm in first, or at 2500/30mph in second, in your sbm,and lighting up the 295s, like the 440 boys do.That is so incredibly addictive.I would not sacrifice that for say 20 or 30 hp at 6000 rpm.
For 50hp,maybe I'd give up a lil,lol!

On another note, that extra low-rpm torque, means you can pull some gear out to get your cruise rpm down, and that means cross-country jaunts are back on the table. The lowered cruise rpm are both more comfortable,and the more miles per dollar is never a bad thing. It's just too bad Ma never gave us a beefy, well worked out sbm 5-speed, cuz swapping chunks gets old in a hurry.
 
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