727 TC Installed - Probably Wrong...

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74Dart318

74Dart318

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So, I installed the engine and transmission together into the car about a month ago. I did not try to turn the engine over after connecting the transmission and engine until last night.

Couldn't get it to budge.

After some research seems like the TC may have been installed incorrectly (by me... whoops) and probably broke the pump gear.

My questions at this point:

-Anything else to check?
-How can I disconnect the TC if I cannot spin it to reach all 4 bolts?
-Do you think I can drop and tilt the transmission enough to just pull it backwards off the TC?

Anyway, thanks in advance for the help. FABO is the best.
 
Alignment issue with converter. Had the same issue 440 /727
1)remove all bolts from converter
2)try to spin motor.. Yes? good No? Bad!
3)make sure converter is aligned with the crank then loosely thread all converter bolts in.
4) tighten all bolts gradually pulling converter in properly then try top spin motor over by hand
5) respond letting us know
 
440DART1970 said:
Alignment issue with converter. Had the same issue 440 /727
1)remove all bolts from converter
2)try to spin motor.. Yes? good No? Bad!
3)make sure converter is aligned with the crank then loosely thread all converter bolts in.
4) tighten all bolts gradually pulling converter in properly then try top spin motor over by hand
5) respond letting us know
Click to expand...

I am going to try and take a look at it tonight after work. If I cannot get the TC & engine to spin is there a way to get to all 4 bolts you think?
Seems like it will be very tight in there.
 
you may need to loosen the bolts connecting the trans to the motor also to get it to spin.. take it apart slightly to get it loose
you need to have a combination of movement between the motor and the trans to get the converter to sit correctly on crank
the cranks end has a round raised edge that the converter matches to and must be seated correctly
once the converter is sitting on crank correctly and the bolts are tightened the converter should spin allowing the converter bolts to be put in with someone turning the crank by hand with a wrench
 
My 727 with 3500 Hughes stall speed converter..
see the center round hub on the converter... that MUST sit properly into the crank end
20170409_131454.jpg
 
another possible cause (this is assuming you DID seat the TC) is that one or more of the TC bolts were never tightened enough - - it only takes one. I would take the starter out (or at least pop it out of the hole enough to disengage it) and take the TC dust cover off and see if any of the bolts will tighten any more. You'll probably only be able to get at two of them - if they won't tighten then you will surely need to loosen them. If this is what it is, it can be very problematic trying to get all 4 tightened properly - tighten one and the other 3 (if slightly loose) will inevitably hit the back of the block because they are now sticking out too much. You'll want to pull a few spark plugs to lessen the compression in the engine as you are going to have to turn it by hand with a socket (at least, this is how I did it when I installed mine). Engine break away should be around 60 foot pounds and the crank bolt - IIRC is torqued to 125, so you can turn the engine forward or backward depending on what you need to do without loosening the bolt. You have to futz around to get each of the TC bolts at about the same looseness - while also pushing the TC itself backwards into the transmission.. it's a "dance" and can be frustrating.
I'm betting (and hoping for your sake) that you got 3 out of 4 properly tightened and the 4th one is up behind the engine and catching on the block - totally resolvable - just not a lot of fun.
 
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ScampMike said:
another possible cause (this is assuming you DID seat the TC) is that one or more of the TC bolts were never tightened enough - - it only takes one.
Click to expand...
Omg i did the same thing I tightened up 3 and left one little looser than the rest and it got caught on one of the main supports in between the motor and the transmission. I had to physically unbolt the motor from the transmission to separate them to remove the bolts and started over
 
440DART1970 said:
Omg i did the same thing I tightened up 3 and left one little looser than the rest and it got caught on one of the main supports in between the motor and the transmission. I had to physically unbolt the motor from the transmission to separate them to remove the bolts and started over
Click to expand...
yep - it'll sneak up in there just fine while you are working to get everything tight - but once the other three are in, that 4th one will stick out just enough to really ruin your day. The one time I did it, I got lucky - it took some doing, but I did eventually get the other three loose enough to be able to push the TC backward enough to get past the end of the block. One of those :wtf: :BangHead::BangHead: moments you will never forget.
 
Unless I missed something, you probably didn't seat the converter in the trans correctly. I would loosen the bell housing bolts to take pressure off the trans pump. Should be easier to rotate to take out the converter bolts. Then you can make sure the converter is seated properly. I think it's two clunks you need to hear as you rotate the converter. You will feel it move into the trans. But you might want to completely remove the converter to see if it's damaged. When it's in properly, you will need to pull the converter towards the engine a small amount when putting the converter bolts back in. There's some posts on this.
 
This is one of the main reasons that you will never catch me installing an engine and a transmission as a unit. You have very little access to the TC bolts and you really can't see what you're doing down there. Then, you don't find conditions like the one described here until it's too late.
 
What I would do is take two long shank bolts and put them in at about 3 and 9 o'clock then remove or loosen all the other bellhouse bolts. Slide the tranny back on the long shankers, and futz to your hearts content,lol. You may have to remove the rear mount and put a jack under the pan and remove the back of the driveshaft.

But just a heads up; you should be able to turn the engine backwards if a bolt is jammed up against one of the oil passage tunnels or whatever else.
But if the starter is jammed into the ring-gear then it all stops.
And if the engine happens to be hydraulicked.......you will have wasted a lot of time and energy.
 
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I only install them as an Unit......Easier to do it that way...For Me....

Get the converter seated...can stand trans on it tail shaft and use gravity to get it to seat...bolts on with no hassle from the firewall...I line up the flexplate with converter and paint one of the hubs to make alignment easier once in car.....
 
furyus2 said:
Unless I missed something, you probably didn't seat the converter in the trans correctly. I would loosen the bell housing bolts to take pressure off the trans pump. Should be easier to rotate to take out the converter bolts. Then you can make sure the converter is seated properly. I think it's two clunks you need to hear as you rotate the converter. You will feel it move into the trans. But you might want to completely remove the converter to see if it's damaged. When it's in properly, you will need to pull the converter towards the engine a small amount when putting the converter bolts back in. There's some posts on this.
Click to expand...

This is what I was thinking. The TC is probably not seated correctly on the transmission even though everything is bolted up.

AJ/FormS said:
What I would do is take two long shank bolts and put them in at about 3 and 9 o'clock then remove or loosen all the other bellhouse bolts. Slide the tranny back on the long shankers, and futz to your hearts content,lol. You may have to remove the rear mount and put a jack under the pan and remove the back of the driveshaft.

But just a heads up; you should be able to turn the engine backwards if a bolt is jammed up against one of the oil passage tunnels or whatever else.
But if the starter is jammed into the ring-gear then it all stops.
And if the engine happens to be hydraulicked.......you will have wasted a lot of time and energy.
Click to expand...

Seems like a good plan, will see if I can located some long bolts for this.

The engine turned over before attaching the transmission. The engine and transmission are both rebuilt with 0 miles on either.
 
Well, had a couple hours to look at it after work. Got the inspection cover off, starter out of the way, unbolted the trans crossmember, then loosened all the bellhousing bolts.

I was able to drop the transmission and back the transmission off the engine 1/4 - 1/2 of an inch.

This finally provided the room for the engine to turn over. It would not budge either way until the transmission was nudged backwards.

My guess at this point is that this means the TC was not seated correctly on the transmission shaft.

Does this mean the transmission pump might be ruined?

Here are a few pictures of it's current state; the TC is still bolted to the flexplate and the engine turns over now.

IMG_20170522_190820275.jpg


IMG_20170522_190810252.jpg


IMG_20170522_190835400.jpg
 
The only way you'll know for sure is to get the converter out, and then remove the pump and inspect the lugs on the pump gears, as they may have been damaged. Also, closely inspect the converter hub. Look for burrs or nicks on the hub and also look carefully in the slots where the pump lugs fit. Any damage in there might spell disaster down the road if not tended to.
My feeling is the converter was not seated into the pump gears, and while your at it, measure the hole in the crank and then measure the converter pilot. The crank pilot should measure around 1.810" and the hole in the crank a hair larger.
 
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transman said:
The only way you'll know for sure is to get the converter out, and then remove the pump and inspect the lugs on the pump gears, as they may have been damaged. Also, closely inspect the converter hub. Look for burrs or nicks on the hub and also look carefully in the slots where the pump lugs fit. Any damage in there might spell disaster down the road if not tended to.
My feeling is the converter was not seated into the pump gears, and while your at it, measure the hole in the crank and then measure the converter pilot. The crank pilot should measure around 1.810" and the hole in the crank a hair larger.
Click to expand...

This is what I figured. Looks like I will be purchasing a transmission jack and pulling it out.

Thanks everyone for the help!
 
d55dave said:
Is it just me or is the flexplate on backwards in the ops pics above?
Click to expand...

ScampMike said:
so hard to be sure - but you may have something there..
Click to expand...

Interesting thought. I put the flexplate back on the way I took it off. Which doesn't mean it was correct, since transmission work was done by someone else a while back.

Which way should it be installed? Is there a diagram for this? I know it is slightly concave towards the middle.
 
74Dart318 said:
Interesting thought. I put the flexplate back on the way I took it off. Which doesn't mean it was correct, since transmission work was done by someone else a while back.

Which way should it be installed? Is there a diagram for this? I know it is slightly concave towards the middle.
Click to expand...

Pull it out and see if you can flip it and if it seems to solve the problem.
 
wouldn't you have at least one bolt hole that wouldn't line up with the crankshaft? essentially ending up with 5 instead of 6
 
Well, I am going to pull the trans this week or at least this weekend anyway. I will post some pics. I think it is installed correctly.
 
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