'89 roller-cam LA 360 w/Magnum heads - new roller lifters not pumping up

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cudak888

cudak888

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Hello all:

I'm presently battling the lifters in a 1989 factory roller-cam LA 360. It has not been rebuilt, but when I had it apart, it checked out super clean. It has a pair of Magnum heads on it - figured I'd go the whole Magnum route seeing that it had the factory roller cam setup in it already.

That said, when I got the engine, half of the lifters had been swapped out, as seen here:

Passenger's side on left, driver's on right.
epkbhw.jpg


Note that unlike what everybody says about these lifters, both of these have their oil delivery hole at a 90 degree angle to the spider.

I had a ticking noise coming from the driver's side though (later found to be cylinder #7's exhaust lifter jammed), and initially pulled each rocker arm on the driver's side to inspect each pushrod in case they were bent.

None were bent, but when I put the whole thing back together again, it clattered like nobody's business. Turns out three of the lifters weren't pumping up at all.

Now, I can't explain why three lifters just decided to give up the ghost. so I took the manifold and carburetor off for a closer look, and spun the engine. Apparently, not a single pushrod on the driver's side of the engine was spitting oil out the rocker.

I pulled the lifters to examine whether oil was pumping through the gallery. That checked out. I also moved a set of the "good" lifters from the left side of the engine to the right. The "good" lifters worked perfectly and squirted oil when placed on the driver's side of the engine (and were held down to the cam with my fingers, so that they didn't pop up too far).

Now, I went ahead and ordered a set of lifters from Advance Auto - a set of Sealed Power lifters (with the oil hole facing upwards). Dumped them in oil for a while, put them in...nothing. No prime/pump up after repeated cranking, and all the rockers have about 1/8" of slop if pressed.

Returned the Sealed Power units. Got a set of Melling lifters which look almost identical to the ones in the left side of the engine, only the fill hole is - again - at top. Again, I can't get the thing to prime even if I leave the engine cranking 20 times, even though the rest of the old lifters are squiring like tomorrow ain't never going to come.

If you want to read an even more detailed version of this saga, see: http://www.forabodiesonly.com/mopar/showthread.php?t=316085&page=9

Any suggestions?

-Kurt
 
thesiren74 said:
Keep the ones from good side in the side thats not getting oil?
Click to expand...

My neighbor just brought his oil pump priming shaft over. This is what I found, spinning the shaft very quickly with a Briggs & Stratton el-cheapo drill:

  • All the good "passenger side" lifters spray oil with a steady 2.5" long stream, regardless of location on the engine (half of them are on the driver's side right now as a test).
  • The old "driver's side" lifters - the cause of all this in the first place - spray oil steadily for a second, then lose pressure almost immediately and just dribble.
  • The latest lifters that I bought - a set of four Melling JB2225's - hardly dribble at all. I also tried priming one of the Mellings with an old pushrod in my drill press. No difference.

Since the priming shaft elimintated the need for the camshaft to be spinning, I also tried spinning the Melling lifter 90 degrees, so the oil hole location would be oriented like the old lifters. No change. I tried spinning it 360 degrees as well, while priming. Barely a dribble.

I'm really beginning to believe that between the Sealed Power and Melling pushrods, I've been sold 12 lemons today.

Also shot footage on the GoPro - will post it soon as I can export it.

-Kurt
 
AJ/FormS said:
Is there an oil galley plug in the back that may be missing?
Click to expand...

Already checked for it. Present and accounted for.

Honestly, I doubt a restriction in the galleries. It doesn't explain why I can move any lifter to any position in the engine and replicate the same results from each specific lifter, regardless of position (e.g., no flow, dribble, partial flow, or "Holy $&!^ that's the flow I'm looking for" flow).

-Kurt
 
Here's the video. In the video, the new Mellings are on cylinders #6 and #8; the "good" lifters from the passenger's side are distributed in the front of the engine on #2, #4, #1, and #3; and the problematic lifters from the drivers' side are mounted in the #5 and #7 spot:

The video has not been edited - might be a bit confusing. Following is what you're seeing:

  1. I show the difference between the Melling straight-up oiling hole, and the 90 degree hole on the engine's existing good lifters.
  2. Next, I run the priming rod on the drill. Watch as the front banks (2, 4, 1, 3) oil perfectly with the old good lifters from the passenger's side, the Mellings (6 and 8) barely dribble, and the old "bad" lifters (e.g. driver's side, now only on #5 and #7) leak down almost immediately after pumping up.
  3. Since the camshaft isn't turning, I rotate the Melling lifter 90 degrees to mimic the other lifters. Doesn't work.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wALp_S2rhsc"]YouTube[/ame]

-Kurt
 
thesiren74 said:
Did you clean them before you soaked them in oil?
Click to expand...

Yes, even disassembled one. Didn't see anything out of the ordinary, but I didn't look at the check valve either (first time taking one apart, didn't think of it until I saw it in a forum thread later).

-Kurt
 
In response to post #5
Yeah, I thought of that,a while after I posted....sorry.

In post #3, you talk about priming them in a drill press. That's a really good idea. But to make it work, with cantankerous valves, you might have to do the valving manually. This would involve opening and closing the orifices manually to prevent reverse flow from just pushing the same fluid back and forth, instead of through. This sounds tricky, and shouldn't be necessary,especially with new lifters. I once had to make an apparatus to do this very thing, but for a Honda motorcycle.For me, it solved the problem, and it never came back.
 
Are the oiling holes the same size?have you changed the oil? Maybe debri could be sturring up?
 
AJ/FormS said:
In response to post #5
Yeah, I thought of that,a while after I posted....sorry.
Click to expand...

Hey, no problem - always good to re-check the mental checklist. Wouldn't be here if I wasn't trying to tick all the boxes with the help of the experts.

thesiren74 said:
Are the oiling holes the same size?have you changed the oil? Maybe debri could be sturring up?
Click to expand...

The Melling and the good lifters from the engine share the same size oil hole. The Sealed Power lifters I tried this morning were smaller, and the bad lifters from the engine are about the same size, but have that hourglass shape before them.

The engine is a 1989 LA 360 that came from a B350 from the junkyard, and was so clean inside as to be a unicorn find. Everything checked out perfect, and sludge was non-existent. This is what it looked like on Day #1 of teardown:

t02mqf.jpg


I have no doubts that the oiling is fine. I could swap all those lifters in the front of the engine in the video to the back, and the flow would go with them.

I'm running fresh 10W-30 for the initial runs.

-Kurt
 
AJ/FormS said:
Just a thought; is the oil perhaps getting out of the lifter from a different place?
Click to expand...

I did notice oil seeping from around the plugged lifters, though it looks as if most of the pressure is being diverted to the free-flowing lifters instead.

-Kurt
 
AJ/FormS said:
So just to recap; It doesn't matter where you put the "plugged" lifters, the results are always the same? It's the same lifters in any lifter-bore, that doesn't work....right?
Click to expand...

Results are always the same, in that a "plugged" lifter in any bore remains plugged, while any of the oil-pumping lifters will flow oil with no restriction; again, in any bore.

-Kurt
 
thesiren74 said:
Measure the lifter diameter just to rule it out and oil hole height.
Click to expand...

Crap - returned the darn things about an hour ago and didn't measure diameter.

While I can't get you a diameter check (fit on the Mellings was very snug though), I remember putting the Melling lifters next to the "good" lifters in the engine (same comparison as is made in the video), and the hole location and the chamfered oil ring were dead on in the same locations across the length of the lifter (even though the oil hole was 90 degrees off).

-Kurt
 
AJ/FormS said:
IMHO, you did the right thing.
Click to expand...

At $64 for four pieces of cylindrical scrap iron, you bet I did the right thing ;)

Incidentally, the Sealed Powers (HT-2269) were marked as made in Mexico. They looked exactly like this, with that circular oiling bore:
3718840_sea_ht2269_pri_larg.jpg


The Melling JB‑2225's I bought look like this, and were marked Made in USA:
s-l225.jpg



-Kurt
 
I just got a set of used, cleaned, and tested lifters from Sireland67 (who busted his butt getting them to me and has been my sounding board during the entire build - thank you so much!) and installed them.

I put them in and spun the priming tool with my 1200 RPM drill. Unlike the lifters that were shooting 2" streams of oil, these lifters are pretty much just dribbling when primed. However, they seemed to pump up, so I put all the pushrods in to "see what I could see."

After about 30 seconds of continuous priming, I get a slow dribble of oil coming through the pushrod onto the rocker, but very little. I shot some really terrible iPhone footage of this, which I've attached below:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NC-fBni3eB8"]Lifters - YouTube[/ame]

And at the rocker:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqDYV1uRYSU"](FABO) Rocker oiling from pushrods - YouTube[/ame]

I have some good GoPro shots, but need to upload them, and I'm in the midst of trying to build three FreeNAS server boxes for all the stuff I have around here, so the better footage will have to wait.

These are not the results I was getting from the "good" 8 lifters that were in the engine, which pretty much pissed oil from the pushrod hole like there was no tomorrow.

That said, have I had this wrong all along? Is this the way it's supposed to look when primed at this speed?

One other issue: Of the 16 lifters, 14 pump up so that the rocker is firm against the pedestal. One allows for a bit of wiggle room. The other is just as bad as the lifters that weren't pumping up to begin with - you can press it down even when spinning the priming shaft.

Thoughts? Opinions? I'm all ears.

-Kurt
 
When I asked about, is the oil getting out of the lifter elsewhere, I was thinking out the bottom and drizzling all over the roller-wheel or camshaft.I was thinking more along the lines that the bottom of the lifter bores were damaged, but since it doesn't matter where you put them, and now we see that pretty much any new lifter does the same, that rules this idea out. And by now you have probably ruled out oversize lifter-bores.But the one sure thing in all this is that many of them are putting out a lot of oil. Maybe they are the faulty ones. I've never had a roller cam engine open, so I'm no help at all.
 
When you are priming the engine, there is two different spots in which the rockers oil.
The crank has to be rotated, for both sides to oil.
 
AJ/FormS said:
When I asked about, is the oil getting out of the lifter elsewhere, I was thinking out the bottom and drizzling all over the roller-wheel or camshaft.I was thinking more along the lines that the bottom of the lifter bores were damaged, but since it doesn't matter where you put them, and now we see that pretty much any new lifter does the same, that rules this idea out. And by now you have probably ruled out oversize lifter-bores.But the one sure thing in all this is that many of them are putting out a lot of oil. Maybe they are the faulty ones. I've never had a roller cam engine open, so I'm no help at all.
Click to expand...

Nope - none of the lifter bores are leaking out onto the camshaft; it's a nice snug fit.

Only those 8 from the engine squirt oil like no tomorrow when the pump is spun. I'm beginning to wonder whether that's proper operation or not, and I'm tempted to open them up and see if some sort of check valve is missing in them. It's obvious that the oil pump (and thus, drill) is under slightly more strain with Sirland67's lifters than in any combo that has those 8 installed.

That's not that I'm excluding the other lifters that won't pump up for being troublesome in their own right. There are two problems here - lifters that won't pump up, and lifters that won't pass oil.

thesiren74 said:
Try rotating the engine by hand while spining the drill?
Click to expand...

Not sure what this would achieve. I'm not that well up on the oiling system of the SBM, but doesn't the passenger's side oil gallery and tappets receive oil directly from the gallery without any obstruction prior?

-Kurt
 
Look at the engine ID pad (front of block, left bank) and see if a Diamond shape <> is stamped in. If so, one or more lifter bores were oversized at the factory .008 Also any oversized lifter bore would be stamped with the diamond.
 
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