A-Body Autocross?

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Boglin

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Hey guys, I haven't posted on here in forever mainly because I haven't had time to work on my Mopar. My 1970 Duster 340 has been patiently waiting for a restore for many many years and I need to start considering it or sell it. But recently I've had a bit of a bug in my head.

Last year I raced my 07' Mustang in autocross and had a lot of fun but the Mustang was too big and would need some work to become competitive. I really don't want to turn it into an autocross car but then I got the idea to do it to my Duster. I realize it would be one hell of a project but I also think to would be fun and challenging.

What do you guys think, am I out of my mind? Have you heard of any successful examples of this? I've also considered the idea of just swapping the engine into an a-body Barracuda and trying it instead of the Duster.
 
Well, I think it'll be costly to try and match the performance of any modern day mustang with a 40 year old duster. You would really need to do alot to make the duster competitive with modern day vehicles. What is your budget?

I expect AutoXcuda to chime in he knows what hes talking about and has a very sweet handling notchback cuda. All with Hotchkis equipment.
 
mopardude318 said:
What is your budget?
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It's not like the money is sitting there waiting but I'd expect to end up costing something like $20,000. I realize the car would not be the norm but I think a Duster or Barracuda autocross car would be a fun and unique project.
 
Autoxcuda, well auto crosses his barracuda notch back.
 
Wracks71 has a Duster he runs as well. There's several threads on here discussing the progress to get the car where it is now.
 
i don't have a build thread,but i can provide a load of pics! we will be doing the face off at road america this summer so we'll see how that goes. many more runs scheduled. i pretty have the only regular mopar at these evnts on the east coast so we need some more out there! even if they are my competition! lol! check out my you tube page under wrackcrawler.
 
since i am getting alot of pm's about my suspension setup,i figured i would cover it on here. i am running full RMS suspension front and rear. alter-k front with double adjustable afco shocks. four link rear with the same shocks. bill and i are working on a rear swaybar that should be ready soon for testing. the front bar 1 1/4". i do have weld in subframe connectors as well,huge help! if you are in the process of building,go ahead a do a mini tub for wider rears. brakes are 6 piston 13" rotor fronts and DrDiff 12" rotor cobra rear. i can't think of anything else,i have had the worst day ever at work. i will answer any questions you guys have. just please don't buy magnum force or imitation junk,you get what you pay for!

View attachment DSC03578.jpg
 
Thanks for the great pics. What are those headers?

Is the rear 4 link all custom built?
 
headers are sanderson shorties,awsome pieces. the four link is RMS street lynx.
 
It depends a whole lot on what sanctioning organization and class you chose. In the USA, SCCA is the largest and most dominant organization and rule set. Even so, there are other options and the local events sometimes have local classes like vintage.

I won't bore you with SCCA rules 'cause you're in Canada. But keep in mind that the least modified class will be the least expensive and the easiest to drive.

For the later A-body, I would stick with the Duster - especially if it is already a non-restoration project car. This way if the class allows wider tires than fit, you won't feel bad about widening or flaring the openings. Same with installing a roll bar in a way to gain some additional structural stiffening if allowed.

If you're driving courses where a mustang can't maneuver, I don't see any advantage to a Duster or an second gen barracuda. Get yourself a Kart if they allow 'em. That or look for a different group to run with that has a class and course setup for pony cars.

So, I don't think you're out of your mind - depending on your expectations. :)
 
Great pictures do you have the part number for those headers. Any install probems. Thanks
 
Take a look at the autocross events and providers in your area. Classes are very important, and before you start working on the car you'll want to decide which class you want to race in. If you're not an experienced autocrosser, it will be better to keep the car closer to stock. Which is fine, because there's absolutely no reason you can't handle well with the stock suspension design. Coil overs aren't inherently a better design at all.

Once you've looked at a rule book, set the car up. Probably something like this...

1.06- 1.12" torsion bars
Bilstien or Fox shocks
Front and rear sway bars (Hotchkis probably the best here)
Frame connectors (check the rules, "through the floor" connectors aren't allowed in all classes)
Rear springs for handling (120-130lb rates, low ride height)
Good alignment- negative camber, +3 or more caster, slight toe in
16" or bigger rims and sticky, modern compound tires. Check your rules for size limits though
Bigger brakes (check rules)
Stock lca's with offset bushings or tubular(rules again)

Autoxcuda and gmachineDartgt have their cars set up pretty well for this sort of thing. Theres lots of other things to consider, 16:1 steering, 4 or more speed transmissions, etc, but it's better to start small and improve your car as your driving improves, rather than build a bad *** car that has to compete in ridiculously fast classes against seasoned drivers.
 
what we run i don't have to worry about classes. or with goodguys autocross. the SCCA guys freak out over classes. i can't even run local SCCA because they say my car is too loud. pu$$ie$.
 
. Coil overs aren't inherently a better design at all.


lmfao! you seriously said that! i have run MY car BOTH ways for 4 years now,and there is no way a stock suspension car can keep on an autocross or road track with a car with the suspension i have now. i jumped up like 15 spots at least the first time out with bad tires and no tuning and the first time out driving the car with the new suspension. why do you think DSE camaro's are so hard to touch? just the difference in ride is worth the money!
 
wracks71 said:
. Coil overs aren't inherently a better design at all.


lmfao! you seriously said that! i have run MY car BOTH ways for 4 years now,and there is no way a stock suspension car can keep on an autocross or road track with a car with the suspension i have now. i jumped up like 15 spots at least the first time out with bad tires and no tuning and the first time out driving the car with the new suspension. why do you think DSE camaro's are so hard to touch? just the difference in ride is worth the money!
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Yes, I seriously said that, and I seriously mean it too. Just because your car runs faster now doesn't mean its running a better design, it just means it wasn't set up properly with torsion bars.

A torsion bar design is not inherently worse than a coil over set up. The MII design that is so common with coilover set ups is not the end all be all of suspension designs. It is extremely common, and it is easily adapted to multiple platforms, which makes it popular. Now, the biggest advantage of the coilover set ups out there is that they're more easily tuned because there are more options available in the form of aftermarket coilovers. Which is a big advantage, because it makes it easier to tune the car for the proper set up. The range of spring rates and shock valving out there is much better for a coilover car, which makes tuning easier.

But, there's absolutely no reason why a well tuned torsion bar equipped car can't be just as fast, or faster, than one that's been converted to coilovers. None. That's not to say that it wouldn't be harder to get the torsion bar car tuned to that level with the parts that are out there. The range of torsion bar spring rates is limited, and so is the number of shocks out there. On the other hand, $7k buys a lot of different sized torsion bars, and a custom valved set of shocks is well in that price range.

But honestly, it is not a design issue. If there were a few dozen torsion bar spring rates available and more custom valved shock options, it would be just as easy to get a torsion bar car to go fast as it is a coilover car. Its just physics, plain and simple.

Besides that, its ridiculous to suggest that you have to spend $7k and completely swap your suspension over to have fun autocrossing one of these cars, which is what the OP was asking about. Are you going to be the fastest car on the track with the set up I suggested? Probably not. But you don't have to write RMS a $7k check to be competitive either.
 
Boglin, If you find a local organization with no classes, no restrictions, and you're having fun, then go for it. You might look for 'track days' and things like that.

72bluNblu is giving you good advice. I like Bill Reilly and I like his products, but that's only one of several routes. It has the disadvantage of placing your car in a very prepared class, usually very competitve. In SCCA, it would at least put the car in C Prepared and that means serious slicks and tuning time. You can look at the Sandberg's AAR as the for an example of a fully developed CP Mopar.

There's a link on my website to a couple of guys in Canada who were autocrossing their 'cuda on your side of the border. Not sure if their webpage is still up - its been a while since I've checked.

My only additions to what 72bluNblu wrote are:
Build your chassis tune around the tires. Change them and it has a major effect.
Competition R and A compund tires are available in 15", 16" to a lesser extent unless you're look at stockers, and 17" is probably the best selection unless you're looking at slicks. Your choice will depend on the rules, weight and ride ht considerations, and whether you will have to use them on the street.
Make the car lighter!
Slaloms require faster ratio steering 16:1 power or manual is very helpful.
Rear sway bar should come last, and be light.
Shocks are very important in autocross. Koni's and Penskes if you get real serious. Whatever you choose, remember if you've lowered the car, make sure the shock doesn't bottom out.

Another route is to go toward rally motorsports. Stock based suspensions do very well with only a bit of tweaking. Of course full closed course stage rally is a high risk game. Expect serious damage as part of the game.
 
Hey wracks, what brakes did you go with up front? Six pistons sounds like it might be a paint in the butt just changing pads on :p
 
72bluNblu said:
Yes, I seriously said that, and I seriously mean it too. Just because your car runs faster now doesn't mean its running a better design, it just means it wasn't set up properly with torsion bars.

A torsion bar design is not inherently worse than a coil over set up. The MII design that is so common with coilover set ups is not the end all be all of suspension designs. It is extremely common, and it is easily adapted to multiple platforms, which makes it popular. Now, the biggest advantage of the coilover set ups out there is that they're more easily tuned because there are more options available in the form of aftermarket coilovers. Which is a big advantage, because it makes it easier to tune the car for the proper set up. The range of spring rates and shock valving out there is much better for a coilover car, which makes tuning easier.

But, there's absolutely no reason why a well tuned torsion bar equipped car can't be just as fast, or faster, than one that's been converted to coilovers. None. That's not to say that it wouldn't be harder to get the torsion bar car tuned to that level with the parts that are out there. The range of torsion bar spring rates is limited, and so is the number of shocks out there. On the other hand, $7k buys a lot of different sized torsion bars, and a custom valved set of shocks is well in that price range.

But honestly, it is not a design issue. If there were a few dozen torsion bar spring rates available and more custom valved shock options, it would be just as easy to get a torsion bar car to go fast as it is a coilover car. Its just physics, plain and simple.

Besides that, its ridiculous to suggest that you have to spend $7k and completely swap your suspension over to have fun autocrossing one of these cars, which is what the OP was asking about. Are you going to be the fastest car on the track with the set up I suggested? Probably not. But you don't have to write RMS a $7k check to be competitive either.
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brother,i have been on both sides of this fence. i had done everything i could to get my car up to speed with some of the best cars in the country,spent more than a alter-k would cost,and STILL did not get the performance. it is BETTER by design! that's why people that know that,run it! i will agree that depending on you level of driving,cash flow,and class restrictions anyone will be limited and have just as much fun. BUT! you are no going to come close to the DSE cars,brian finch,etc. i have been doing this for quite sometime now,along with serious rockcrawling. a four link rear with coilovers rule,bottom line,thats why people use them and they are faster. from my experience,it is the people that do not want to pay for it or can't that talk it down. i tried to do just what you are talking about and run with these guys,and i done ok and gained alot of repect. but you HAVE to go to the next level to compete. i have been fortunate to team up with bill reilly,hodge restoration,rooster's rod shop,and just got Mickey Thompson as a tire sponsor. but to get there,it takes the next level.
 
MADMarc said:
Hey wracks, what brakes did you go with up front? Six pistons sounds like it might be a paint in the butt just changing pads on :p
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hey man. the six piston willwoods are easy as pie to change pads. just make sure if you go to a road track you have the track pads. i found that out at AMP in georgia in december! my 3rd gen vipers worked just as well,but the pads will kill you,like $225 a set!
 
I will agree with both opinions to a point. Coil over suspension is much more user friendly, Easier to tune. The kits from RMS have a ton of time in R/D and have match components to work for the application taking the guess work out of building a suspension set from scratch.How ever I believe a car using T bars and leaf springs can still be set up to compete with some of the fastest cars on the track. (We will see as this is the route I took) Unfortunately setting up a Tbar leaf spring set up is far from just bolt in and go. A ton of factors come in to play when considering components. Driver skill is one of the biggest factors. I'm building an early A to run in many of the same events as wraks71, I have bought some of the pieces (wracks71) he sold off of his car. Moparmitch has a challenger that is running tbar leaf spring set up and was a scca national champ for several years. If his car was to run against the DSE cars I think he would be lacking the H.P. to keep up in an open track event. on a closed coures autocross it would be a coin toss as to how it would perform against the likes of the DSE cars. A prime example of driver skill was a test and tune at DSE open house last year were they had a track rented. The Bowler transmission Torino was there and Kyle Tucker (DSE owner driver of the Gen II camaro) did a couple a laps in the car and bested the owners time by several seconds. Good luck with your build. Tim
 

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wracks71 said:
brother,i have been on both sides of this fence. i had done everything i could to get my car up to speed with some of the best cars in the country,spent more than a alter-k would cost,and STILL did not get the performance. it is BETTER by design! that's why people that know that,run it! i will agree that depending on you level of driving,cash flow,and class restrictions anyone will be limited and have just as much fun. BUT! you are no going to come close to the DSE cars,brian finch,etc. i have been doing this for quite sometime now,along with serious rockcrawling. a four link rear with coilovers rule,bottom line,thats why people use them and they are faster. from my experience,it is the people that do not want to pay for it or can't that talk it down. i tried to do just what you are talking about and run with these guys,and i done ok and gained alot of repect. but you HAVE to go to the next level to compete. i have been fortunate to team up with bill reilly,hodge restoration,rooster's rod shop,and just got Mickey Thompson as a tire sponsor. but to get there,it takes the next level.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I've designed suspensions in FSAE competitions, MII is not inherently better. Sorry, it's just not. They ALL have advantages and drawbacks, and coil overs are no different.

Now, you can totally convince me that with the aftermarket parts available for the torsion bar system that you might not be able to tune your car to get it to compete at that level. I'll absolutely believe that, there's just too many coil over options available, and by comparison the aftermarket support for torsion bars systems blows. That I understand.

And no convincing is necessary to convince me that the leaf spring rear suspension needs help, I totally see how a 4 link system is better for this. Which also brings me to, did you convert your entire car to RMS at the same time?
 
Hey Wracks is Bill still planning on using the upper rear shock bolts to mount the rear sway bar?
As far as autocross in Canada it seems like they will let you run anything, last year I was at one and some roofing company guy was running a diesel full size ford with a ladder rack on it.
 
72bluNblu said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree here. I've designed suspensions in FSAE competitions, MII is not inherently better. Sorry, it's just not. They ALL have advantages and drawbacks, and coil overs are no different.

Now, you can totally convince me that with the aftermarket parts available for the torsion bar system that you might not be able to tune your car to get it to compete at that level. I'll absolutely believe that, there's just too many coil over options available, and by comparison the aftermarket support for torsion bars systems blows. That I understand.

And no convincing is necessary to convince me that the leaf spring rear suspension needs help, I totally see how a 4 link system is better for this. Which also brings me to, did you convert your entire car to RMS at the same time?
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lol. agreed. yes,ny whole car is RMS with d/a afco's. at the time,my car was doing quite well with the upgraded front,but the rear blew,that's where i needed the help. bill took care of all that!
 
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