A cautionary tale when working on push rods

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CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH

CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH

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I received the new rods from Smith Bros. and they look great. IMO the construction and finish is far better than the off the shelf CC rods that I have been using. While .25" shorter they are .2 ozs. heavier.

On with the tale:

While installing the new pushrods I noticed that the #1 intake rod had gone in much further than the others. On further inspection I found that the lifter had come apart! The retaining ring and pushrod seat had come out. I fished these parts out and found the retaining ring to be deformed. When I removed, inspected, and reinstalled the original push rods I must have had the rod off center on the lifter when I tightened down the rocker arm shaft. I distinctly remember hearing a couple of "ting!" when I had started it up after putting it back together. I was very careful when I reassembled to rotate and feel each rod during the assembly process but I must have had 1 ( at least 1) of then off center. I'll be pulling the intake manifold now to do a complete inspection. Hopefully I'll find all the pieces on top (if I haven't already.) My mistake at the very least has cause a whole lot of extra work, and expense. My bad but hopefully this tale will help others to be extra extra careful when working on pushrods. For me personally I will always pull the intake from now on when doing this kind of work. After all how often are you doing this kind of work? Very rarely. This is a 1972 360 with Edelbrock RPM heads and manifold.

Charlie

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A fellow Washingtonian following you. Please keep giving us updates. Paul.
 
Normally, lifters come apart like that because of too little preload that allows the plunger to come up against the retainer and push it out. If you have a non adjustable valve train, that would point to pushrods being too short.
 
RustyRatRod said:
Normally, lifters come apart like that because of too little preload that allows the plunger to come up against the retainer and push it out. If you have a non adjustable valve train, that would point to pushrods being too short.
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Don't think that's it in this case. You can see the deformation of the retainer where the rod pushed down on it. I have Harland Sharp adjustable roller rocker arms that have been working for years. This is a case of:
1. Fixing something that wasn't really broken just wasn't "right" in my view but worked. (mistake number 1)
2. operator error upon installation. (number 2)
 
CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH said:
Don't think that's it in this case. You can see the deformation of the retainer where the rod pushed down on it. I have Harland Sharp adjustable roller rocker arms that have been working for years. This is a case of:
1. Fixing something that wasn't really broken just wasn't "right" in my view but worked. (mistake number 1)
2. operator error upon installation. (number 2)
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Ok.
 
Are the balls on the prods the correct size, not too big? The cup in the lifter looks like it takes a 5/16" ball.
 
CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH said:
I received the new rods from Smith Bros. and they look great. IMO the construction and finish is far better than the off the shelf CC rods that I have been using. While .25" shorter they are .2 ozs. heavier.

On with the tale:

While installing the new pushrods I noticed that the #1 intake rod had gone in much further than the others. On further inspection I found that the lifter had come apart! The retaining ring and pushrod seat had come out. I fished these parts out and found the retaining ring to be deformed. When I removed, inspected, and reinstalled the original push rods I must have had the rod off center on the lifter when I tightened down the rocker arm shaft. I distinctly remember hearing a couple of "ting!" when I had started it up after putting it back together. I was very careful when I reassembled to rotate and feel each rod during the assembly process but I must have had 1 ( at least 1) of then off center. I'll be pulling the intake manifold now to do a complete inspection. Hopefully I'll find all the pieces on top (if I haven't already.) My mistake at the very least has cause a whole lot of extra work, and expense. My bad but hopefully this tale will help others to be extra extra careful when working on pushrods. For me personally I will always pull the intake from now on when doing this kind of work. After all how often are you doing this kind of work? Very rarely. This is a 1972 360 with Edelbrock RPM heads and manifold.

Charlie

View attachment 1715923240
Click to expand...
If you think that is too easy to have happen to you on an LA engine, then you ain't seen nothing, yet, on a 3rd gen HEMI. And pulling the intake on those doesn't really help at all. You either have to stand on your head, or it's all done blindly by feel, when the engine is in the car. And you have to pull a head to change a lifter.
 
Bewy said:
Are the balls on the prods the correct size, not too big? The cup in the lifter looks like it takes a 5/16" ball.
Click to expand...
This can be an issue when ordering.
The lifters push rod seat and the adjuster ...possible to end up with 2 diff diameters.
You can get a radius ball end or the std type. They now call the full radius ball a "rocker ball end". I have them on the lifter end and a cup top for ball adjusters.
 
That is some bad luck right there! How did the ball end not seat itself when placed down there? Seems it would naturally want to seek its lowest point ( seat) under tension as those lifters are like bowls on top. The small seat lifters were OEM pre 68 iirc but many have used them with later pushrods and vice versa. Doesn't make it right but they still work. Bummer
 
'68 and later are 5/16" both ends, the '67 and earlier are 5/16" top and 1/4" bottom so 67 on down stockers have a 1/4 lifter pushrod seat. This was big block stuff. I'm not sure of the same held true for the 'new' LA castings......
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
This can be an issue when ordering.
The lifters push rod seat and the adjuster ...possible to end up with 2 diff diameters.
You can get a radius ball end or the std type. They now call the full radius ball a "rocker ball end". I have them on the lifter end and a cup top for ball adjusters.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. The lifters and pushrods are both CompCam components designed for this motor. the rockers are Harland Sharp also designed for this application and with a 5/16 ball adjuster.

In the image I have provided the bottom rod is the CC and the top rod is the Smith Bros. Are these examples of std and radius ball end? I'm not familiar with the actual definition of the terms.

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20220506_123138[1].jpg
 
CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH said:
That's interesting. The lifters and pushrods are both CompCam components designed for this motor. the rockers are Harland Sharp also designed for this application and with a 5/16 ball adjuster.

In the image I have provided the bottom rod is the CC and the top rod is the Smith Bros. Are these examples of std and radius ball end? I'm not familiar with the actual definition of the terms.

View attachment 1715923415

View attachment 1715923416
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Yes.
Now... the pushrod 'bottom in pic' looks like the typical comp cams blunder... you end up having the dress the edges of the rounded end where it goes straight because those running at the 59 degree lifter angle are going to do 2 things... not seat right ... and dig into the lifter cups.
Had it happen. Its searchable under another name 3404spd or 1wild.
I run the Smith bro radius at the lifter and a cup at the top. Seem maybe radius at both would be the ticket if that's the style adjuster you have, cup?
 
pishta said:
That is some bad luck right there! How did the ball end not seat itself when placed down there? Seems it would naturally want to seek its lowest point ( seat) under tension as those lifters are like bowls on top. The small seat lifters were OEM pre 68 iirc but many have used them with later pushrods and vice versa. Doesn't make it right but they still work. Bummer
Click to expand...

The retainer on these lifters is large and flat. The pushrods are flat on the bottom. This allows the pushrod to hang on the retainer if it is not properly centered. As you can see the Smith Bros. is more radiused than the CC. The question that I have now is what damage, if any, has been caused to the other lifter retaining rings during installation. Are any of them damaged but still holding, for now. I have a bore scope I can use to check it out.

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20220506_130622[1].jpg
 
[
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Yes.
Now... the pushrod 'bottom in pic' looks like the typical comp cams blunder... you end up having the dress the edges of the rounded end where it goes straight because those running at the 59 degree lifter angle are going to do 2 things... not seat right ... and dig into the lifter cups.
Had it happen. Its searchable under another name 3404spd or 1wild.
I run the Smith bro radius at the lifter and a cup at the top. Seem maybe radius at both would be the ticket if that's the style adjuster you have, cup?
Click to expand...

I agree, the HS rockers are radius ball adjusters. I don't think I'll ever go back to CC pushrods. This has been a learning lesson for me. I very much appreciate everyone's comments, opinions, and the knowledge that's been shared.
 
That style of pushrod cup retainer is very easily damaged.

One of my customers had that style of lifter in his Pontiac........ over revved it a few times.
Had the intake and valley cover off at some point afterward, and about half the pushrods had those clips flopping around after the valve floated a little and in the process the pushrod “stepped on” the clips....... they folded up a bit, and came out of the lifters...... and were just riding around on the pushrods.

My preference for hyd lifters where valvetrain drama is likely to occur are the ones that use the “tru arc” style of internal snap rings.
 
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Yes it's pretty easy to hang the push rod up on the side of the lifter when installing push rods with intake manifold in place I always make sure I have a little oil on the lifter side and you can literally feel the suction of the pushrod in the lifter receptacle when it's in its proper position.
 
Lets not confuse the 59 degree to the lifter to pushrod angle, that is just scary! The lifter to pushrod angle is only about 12 degrees off the lifter angle. And I've never seen a lifter with that type of retainer. all the ones I've seen are circlip or at least formed wires. This drawing shows more than enough clearance to keep the ball end (even semi hemispherical) secure without interference.
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The balls are correct, at 5/16". I do not see a problem with either prod in post #15. I think you were just 'unlucky' during assy & the prod got wedged into the cçlip. Cclip could probably be straightened & re-used.
 
pishta said:
Lets not confuse the 59 degree to the lifter to pushrod angle, that is just scary! The lifter to pushrod angle is only about 12 degrees off the lifter angle. And I've never seen a lifter with that type of retainer. all the ones I've seen are circlip or at least formed wires. This drawing shows more than enough clearance to keep the ball end (even semi hemispherical) secure without interference.
View attachment 1715923566
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compcams 867-16

cca-867-16.jpg
 
They’re Hylift Johnson “R” series lifters.

For a SB Mopar the number is A-2011R.
 
HT-2011......
There’s no “R” in the part number, so they got the std wire clips.

I was referring to the Comp 867’s.
They’re “R” series(fast bleed) lifters.

The style of clip they use is to preload the position of the piston down about .030, so it’s in the correct position without adding any additional preload.
They’re designed that way to be run with essentially zero preload.
This is so if the valvetrain is run into a float situation, the lifter can’t pump up. It’s already “topped out”.

The downside is that clip design isn’t very robust and is easily damaged when the pushrods start dancing around.
 
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CHARLES FEARNEYHOUGH said:
I do believe they are. The lifter is CC 867 and the pushrods are CC 7821.
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Well there is part of your problem "CC"
It appears that some the products that Comp Cams is producing of late is pretty much junk, I speak from personnel experience.
Just do a little research on - lifter issues .
 
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