All double rollers are not created equal

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Not sure I like the look of those wear marks. How many miles? That chain has the same profile as mine. The pictures in the mopar connection article show a different style. So a silent chain or link chain is the only one that can be used with the tensioner? One in the article looks like the one on my 340. So many discrepancies.. Hate to scrap brand new parts that are supposed to work and recommended by engine builders. Difficult call to make, but appreciate everyone who is chiming in. No definitive answers here.
 
Treblig said:
There's a lot more contact surface on that one, the larger surface area contact should cause less wear on the tensioner.
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Quite honestly, with that unit, I wouldn’t run a tensioner. :)
I’ll be ordering it soon for my 360. I’ll report back on how it goes.
 
Yes Rusty, I know, when using a tensioner you should use a link chain if NOT you will get the wear pattern I encounter. The OP showed two pictures which one is correct when using a tensioner?
 
I use Edelbrock timing chain and gears, no tensioner, no problems! 65'
 
David Dickerson said:
Purchased a timing chain tensioner from Mancini Racing for a 360 magnum stroker build. Also purchased a mopar performance double roller chain from Jegs. I have read a few horror stories about the plastic getting eaten up on the chain tensioner due to either poor quality of the plastic or the shape of the chain. I looked at the chain on my 340, and the top edge of the chain links are flat and smooth. I believe it's an Edelbrock chain. The mopar chain is more like a bicycle chain with hills and valleys. Should I have any concern about using this combo? Wondering if that shape will wear grooves in the plastic. Due to the mediocre chain oiling abilities of this engine, I want to make sure this unit will last. This car won't see a lot of miles put on it, so maybe I shouldn't be worrying about it. Mancini sells it as a set with the same chain as I purchased. They should know what they are doing.
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How about we answer your question. If you use the Mopar performance chain there's a chance that it will leave marks against the tensioner pad in other words it will dig in a little bit . How do I know? Because I've used them... with the same shape chain and it dug in just about .028 maybe.... I used a JP performance billet gear dbl roller chain that said rollon on it. So what did I do? Well I bought a mancini racing billet gear chain set.. it was tighter than the JP set... so I used it without a tensioner. I took the used tensioner and when I replaced the chain set on my 96 360 magnum in my truck.. I used a cloyes stock replacement link chain set 'flatter face' and used the tensioner with it...and the link chain fell right between the wear marks from the dbl chain... so it rides on a 'like new surface'....

My advice is to only use the tensioner if the chain is loose ..but not loose enough for a .010 smaller chain set... it wont wear very fast...its not going to clog the pickup or anything ...it takes a long time to wear.. mine had 20k of 7200 rpm shifts... it had very mild wear marks.
So yes, it can wear...but the wear isnt catastrophic .... and yes you can buy better chain sets that dont need a tensioner at all.
Sometimes.. you buy 2 or 3 sets of different brands , find what works and return the others.

Hope you get what you need from my reply.
 
If the chain links looks a bicycle chain I would NOT use a tensioner, if the links has a flat back then maybe a tensioner could be used correctly.
 
It’s amazing all the jap engines out there running with two or more tensioners and roller chains and they run.

You need to get more oil to the timing chain if it’s getting after the tensioner.

There isn’t a timing set out there that doesn’t need a tensioner. Not one.
 
David Dickerson said:
Not sure I like the look of those wear marks. How many miles? That chain has the same profile as mine. The pictures in the mopar connection article show a different style. So a silent chain or link chain is the only one that can be used with the tensioner? One in the article looks like the one on my 340. So many discrepancies.. Hate to scrap brand new parts that are supposed to work and recommended by engine builders. Difficult call to make, but appreciate everyone who is chiming in. No definitive answers here.
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No. Any of the chains that have straight links are good. Not the dog bone links.
 
Dicer said:
If the chain links looks a bicycle chain I would NOT use a tensioner, if the links has a flat back then maybe a tensioner could be used correctly.
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Yes, I believe that is correct.
 
Just thought the tensioner was a good idea when I purchased it. Was going off a build on Power Nation. Think I will be alright with it, even with the current chain, considering it won't be getting high miles put on it, but still might try a new different chain to reduce the wear marks. Wherever I see the two sold as a unit, they show the chain that will wear the grooves. Doesn't seem like it has been properly addressed by the engineers, or like some said here, it might just be considered normal wear.
 
Let's use the 4.6 Ford engine as an example here. Are any of you guys familiar with this engine? One of the neat things about me is I was a mechanic for many years..
Those engines ate up guide plates like it was going out of style...then the springs also sometimes broke... no.7 was usuallu the first casualty...the engines would eat themselves around 100k.
Could it be material? Could it be oiling?
There are different box labels of tensioners out there keep in mind...how many are actually different idk.. haven't researched.

How about we consider the finish of the links on the Chain itself are they still machine sharp or were they tumbled before they were put together. I think that might have the greatest role in eating the guide plate....
 
Chrysler went through this problem with the 5.7 Hemi's that came with variable timing and the cylinder shut down to save gas.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
Let's use the 4.6 Ford engine as an example here. Are any of you guys familiar with this engine? One of the neat things about me is I was a mechanic for many years..
Those engines ate up guide plates like it was going out of style...then the springs also sometimes broke... no.7 was usuallu the first casualty...the engines would eat themselves around 100k.
Could it be material? Could it be oiling?
There are different box labels of tensioners out there keep in mind...how many are actually different idk.. haven't researched.

How about we consider the finish of the links on the Chain itself are they still machine sharp or were they tumbled before they were put together. I think that might have the greatest role in eating the guide plate....
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Judging based on the picture previously posted, the 'wear' is due to heating. That's why the material looks all boogered and chunked out rather than a smooth surfaced groove. The heat causes the material to boil in that area. It's likely a combination of oiling and high pressure contact at the edge of the links. But that's also a self-limiting type of wear. Once the grooves are established, the ability to build heat due to friction will abate and the wear will pretty much cease.

I have a tensioner in my 408, I have the same wear grooves. I had about 4k miles on the engine from install to when I saw the tensioner again. It doesn't bug me in the slightest. I didn't want to have to order 5-6 different timing sets to find one that fit with the least slop... just don't have the time or money for it. If I had no slop in the chain to begin with, I'd probably run without a tensioner.

Actually, if I build another I'd probably go with a gear drive (and a crank scraper).
 
Phreakish said:
Judging based on the picture previously posted, the 'wear' is due to heating. That's why the material looks all boogered and chunked out rather than a smooth surfaced groove. The heat causes the material to boil in that area. It's likely a combination of oiling and high pressure contact at the edge of the links. But that's also a self-limiting type of wear. Once the grooves are established, the ability to build heat due to friction will abate and the wear will pretty much cease.

I have a tensioner in my 408, I have the same wear grooves. I had about 4k miles on the engine from install to when I saw the tensioner again. It doesn't bug me in the slightest. I didn't want to have to order 5-6 different timing sets to find one that fit with the least slop... just don't have the time or money for it. If I had no slop in the chain to begin with, I'd probably run without a tensioner.

Actually, if I build another I'd probably go with a gear drive (and a crank scraper).
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I'd love to see, not if...but how loose that chain was that did that to dicers tensioner.
It's just another option 'buying a few'. Like anything, choices are good. Some are n aren't always available to everyone of course. Bob the builder who machines and sells parts can... while bob the car guy in his garage with more money going into the hobby than coming in can't.
 
David Dickerson said:
Not sure I like the look of those wear marks. How many miles? That chain has the same profile as mine. The pictures in the mopar connection article show a different style. So a silent chain or link chain is the only one that can be used with the tensioner? One in the article looks like the one on my 340. So many discrepancies.. Hate to scrap brand new parts that are supposed to work and recommended by engine builders. Difficult call to make, but appreciate everyone who is chiming in. No definitive answers here.
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Look at the teeth on the gears. They are not sprockets. Double Rollers which are junk. And double true rollers which are good are sprockets and chains. Not gears and chain as the tensioner calls for. If you can't spin the rollers one at a time don't use the chain is junk just like the 340's came with.

Don't get me wrong they were better then the nylon covered aluminum gears the 318's came with because the teeth would never shear. But they would always have slack . The slack causes whip but the stretched side causes timing change when its pulling the cam. So even though you keep the loose side tight with a tensioner and control whip the timing still changes on the tight side. Just something to think about.

A tensioner is a bandaid for junk. You can spend your money on two pieces of junk. Tensioner and chain set or just buy one good true roller that fits tight. Different lengths are available special order but very expensive. Expensive chains are a must for big solid roller cams. Belts are better and gear drives rob power.
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
I'd love to see not if, but how loose that chain was that did that to dicers tensioner.
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Like I said, mine had very similar wear at about 4k miles. But no other wear besides where the links ran.
It was a ***** to install the first time. The second time, it was just as tight until the chain links lined up with the grooves.

My chain, without the tensioner, probably had about .06-.09" worth of slop if I were to pull all the slack into one side of the chain and measure vs a straight-edge. I believe it was a comp double roller, but I don't remember if maybe I bought something else back then.

If I could go back in time, I'd spend more on the timing set, but what I received back then looked pretty stout and so I didn't question it until I was at assembly - I could have waited 2 weeks for a new set, or pick up the tensioner at a nearby auto parts store. At the time I also had to factor in that I was relocating to a new state within a few months too and had to be able to drive the car onto the hauler, so in went the tensioner. The engine has always run hard and my timing doesn't jump around at all when checking with a light. It's more solid than any other v8 I've played with - but I can't say for sure the tensioner is responsible because all the others I've checked had many more miles on them.
 
Phreakish said:
Like I said, mine had very similar wear at about 4k miles. But no other wear besides where the links ran.
It was a ***** to install the first time. The second time, it was just as tight until the chain links lined up with the grooves.

My chain, without the tensioner, probably had about .06-.09" worth of slop if I were to pull all the slack into one side of the chain and measure vs a straight-edge. I believe it was a comp double roller, but I don't remember if maybe I bought something else back then.

If I could go back in time, I'd spend more on the timing set, but what I received back then looked pretty stout and so I didn't question it until I was at assembly - I could have waited 2 weeks for a new set, or pick up the tensioner at a nearby auto parts store. At the time I also had to factor in that I was relocating to a new state within a few months too and had to be able to drive the car onto the hauler, so in went the tensioner. The engine has always run hard and my timing doesn't jump around at all when checking with a light. It's more solid than any other v8 I've played with - but I can't say for sure the tensioner is responsible because all the others I've checked had many more miles on them.
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It seems we've all had the same thing happen then. That's why mine went from my 340 to my 5.9 truck with stock replacement chain set.
It's nice to stabilize timing 'somewhat' everywhere outside of loading it, but I'm not too worried about it as I just watch the highest blip on the timing check and that's what it is. It still moves some...just not bouncy. Gear drive is where you head if expect rock steady.
 
If the chain is too tight on the first install just put the chain in the oven for a while before installing. Be sure to wear gloves!!!!
 
MOPAROFFICIAL said:
It seems we've all had the same thing happen then. That's why mine went from my 340 to my 5.9 truck with stock replacement chain set.
It's nice to stabilize timing 'somewhat' everywhere outside of loading it, but I'm not too worried about it as I just watch the highest blip on the timing check and that's what it is. It still moves some...just not bouncy. Gear drive is where you head if expect rock steady.
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Agreed, not a huge issue since correct timing matters most under load - and under load things tend to be consistent. Even a sloppy chain will hold steady under acceleration. But during 'steady state' or with any kind of load reversal, things will move. I don't think 100% rock-steady timing is a reasonable goal for most builds, but it does act as an indicator for what's going on under the timing cover..
 
I rebuild the engine using Cloyes street billet true roller ( 9-3503X9) timing chain set. I even order a new chain tensioner. I could not even start to install the timing set with the tensioner in place and I did try both the new and used tensioner. There was NO slack in the chain, no tensioner needed, just a good performance part. Now as for the "new" chain tensioner there I take issue with, just be careful with the parts you buy.

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Running the MP tensioner and Summit brand billet 9-keyway, two different cams, 4 years use no issues, no concerns. I haven’t been (and won’t be) convinced there is or will be a problem running one. And I run that oem slinger-ma-bob too. No issues, no fouling or rubbing on anything. Haven’t been convinced it’s bad or will go either. Both work as they should on my engine.

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12many said:
Running the MP tensioner and Summit brand billet 9-keyway, two different cams, 4 years use no issues, no concerns. I haven’t been (and won’t be) convinced there is or will be a problem running one. And I run that oem slinger-ma-bob too. No issues, no fouling or rubbing on anything. Haven’t been convinced it’s bad or will go either. Both work as they should on my engine.

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That's the correct style chain too.
 
Couple of comments.
If you want your chain to wear rapidly, fit one that is too tight. It is better that the chain is slightly loose than too tight.
All chains will loosen up with a few hundred miles of use. Really difficult to predict chain wear/life by looking at just the chain.
 
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