Alternator Amp Size?

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understand how the ammeter is right smak in the middle of everything.
Then you will know that it is only in line with the battery.
Cars don't run on the battery. That seems to be what confuses most people.
Battery is for starting and to back up the alternator.
Electricity flows from the higher voltage to the lower.

Some of the years and models have ammeters that don't seem to hold up to abuse as well as others. So it goes.
Its a pretty useful gage and been around a long time.
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Then you will know that it is only in line with the battery.
Cars don't run on the battery. That seems to be what confuses most people.
Battery is for starting and to back up the alternator.
Electricity flows from the higher voltage to the lower.

Some of the years and models have ammeters that don't seem to hold up to abuse as well as others. So it goes.
Its a pretty useful gage and been around a long time.
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ok sure. anyway this is what mine looked like maybe yours was different. looks like all the power flows thru the ammeter to me, but im not an expert like you mattax.

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ok sure. anyway this is what mine looked like maybe yours was different. looks like all the power flows thru the ammeter to me, but im not an expert like you mattax.

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That's one of the reasons I don't like that diagram. It's confusing.

Let's look at it again, and maybe I can explain why not all the current is going through the ammeter.
The diagram's arrows shows current output starting from the alternator.
At the main splice, the current divides.
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Some current goes to the fuse box, that could be for things like the marker and brake lights
Current is also going to the headlight switch, so that would for the headlights themselves.
Current to the ignition switch would be for everything that requires the key to be on to run, in addition to the ignition itself.
Finally current is going to the battery for recharging.

We can put some rough numbers on the current shown.
Lets assume the lights are on and the battery is recharging.
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When the battery is charged, no current flows through the ammeter.
 
Looking at your diagram and numbers, it appears I can use a bit more alternator and not have to bypass the ammeter, or have I left the reservation again??

Yes it always depends on the numbers.
As long as the alternator can supply the power at something over 13ish volts, the ammeter carries no current except for starting and charging.

We've all been sitting at a stop light at night in the rain and seen the ammeter swing over to discharge. What was happening here is the alternator couldn't produce the power demanded for ignition, field, lights, brake lights, wipers and blower at 600 rpm. Voltage drops to the point where its equal or less than battery voltage, so current starts flowing out of the battery.

An alternator that can produce more power at idle will avoid that problem, if its a problem. In the old days, we sit at a light in the rain for a minute, battery drains a little, we get moving and it recharges. No big deal.
But the way people can sit in traffic these days, with A/C on and so forth, it can run down a battery. When recharging, the lower the battery's state, the more current it will draw at a given voltage. So with a battery getting really drained, recharging at 14 Volts maybe its drawing 10 or 15 amps, and doing it every 3 or 4 minutes. An alternator that is better at idle will solve that problem because the battery won't get run down even in those conditions.
(The flip side is if the battery does get really run down, the better alternator may be able to supply the battery the 35 or 40 amps it wants at 14 Volts. That's not such a good thing as discussed in the link.)
The ammeter will show exactly what is going on, so this is where it is useful.

There's lots of ways to abuse the charging circuit including the ammeter. Some years/versions can take the abuse better than others.
One way to abuse it is a long period or repeated high rate of charge. Typical example is someone gets a jump start and then immediately driving on the highway. The one saving grace of lowest output alternators was that even at maximum output, it was generally less than 40 amps. But even 25 or 30 amps through those connections is probably going to have resistance enough to build heat.
Another way is to tap in at the battery for more circuits. We've all seen this - many of us have done it. Plow, winch, stereo, lights, are typical additions. Some of those have a pretty big draws. If the alternator can provide it, its still the highest voltage power supply - so that's all going through the ammeter to get to the tap. If the alternator can't provide it, the battery does and then the alternator recharges the battery. In these situations its not really surprising that ammeters fail if something else doesn't go first.

Hope that make sense. Didn't intend to write that much. dang, turning into A/J LOL
 
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FWIW.
This is the breakdown of what I measured with a clamp meter on the alternator output of my Grand Wagoneer.

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That's a duraspark ignition, alternator field is internally powered but at idle speed maybe not fully.
Headlights were H4s
It has about the same instrument lights along with seperate side marker lamps like newer a-bodies.
 
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And the rub with the Packard terminals is that they are rated for 20 amps IIRC. Weak batteries requiring extended charge levels really tax a bulkhead both in and out from alternator. Why most of the time the black wire is cooked and the red isn't usually as bad.

That's why I never like to run anything more than necessary through the bulkhead. The headlights, blower motor, ignition could and likely should be on relays fed from an alternate feed wire. JMO

Never been a fan of ammeters. Rather monitor charging or the system in a different manner. Pick your parts, pay your money... lots of ways to skin a cat.
 
And the rub with the Packard terminals is that they are rated for 20 amps IIRC. .

I've "said" that LOL. One of my favorite examples is "back when" I was an HVAC serviceman, around here "if" you have a heat pump it is almost always paired with an electric furnace. We've had lots of problem with the same design flag terminals, which have nominally about 25A through them on each furnace element (5kw give or take at 220-240V) and there are almost always several of them per element----------From the breaker to a protection device, to and through the element, to and through the sequencer and then back to the breaker. So that is 6 flag terminals per element and up in this country there is usually about 4 or 5 elements per furnace if not more (5 elements X 5000W X 3.4BTU is 85000 BTU)

Actually I LIKE ammeters, but you can design them with remote shunts and keep them "safe." But the manufacturers, NEVER used decent remote shunts. All three "big ones" used the wiring harness itself for the remote shunt, which resulted in a "numb" ammeter. On my old 86 Ford Ranger, you had to STARE at the ammeter closely and turn on the headlights do 'decide' if "I guess it moved."
 
And the rub with the Packard terminals is that they are rated for 20 amps IIRC. Weak batteries requiring extended charge levels really tax a bulkhead both in and out from alternator. Why most of the time the black wire is cooked and the red isn't usually as bad.

That's why I never like to run anything more than necessary through the bulkhead. The headlights, blower motor, ignition could and likely should be on relays fed from an alternate feed wire. JMO

Never been a fan of ammeters. Rather monitor charging or the system in a different manner. Pick your parts, pay your money... lots of ways to skin a cat.



Hmmmmmm. So do you have the relays and a diagram of how this should be done.

I'd also like to know if it's possible to believe the printed power used by aftermarket ignition systems and let's say...fuel pumps? I went to a Magneto in 1986 because I got tired of battery fired ignitions eating power like jack the bear. Then you had fuel pumps, a water pump and maybe a tail light for night racing. When you had to hot lap, the ignition got weak and you could bet on it...the car would slow down .1-.15 and you never could guess how much you'd lose.

I don't even think I need a 90 amp alternator. But I'm not sure I can find a good aftermarket alternator that is under 90 amps.

TIA
 
I don't even think I need a 90 amp alternator. But I'm not sure I can find a good aftermarket alternator that is under 90 amps.
In reverse order.
I don't trust any aftermarket alternator, except maybe those listed for aircraft.
If you know someone with a carbon pile and ammeter, or combo unit like an VAT 40, you can test them on the car. I picked up VAT 40 this fall. Maybe next week I'll see what the square back currently on my car does.
As far as I can tell, there is no standard for alternator 'ratings.'

The service manual tests are to be done at 1250 rpm, at 15 Volts. This is actually a pretty good test. 1250 is between regular idle and fast idle on a typical car. My understanding is testing the output at 15 Volts is worst case situation. At lower voltage it can put out more current. Alternator output is power. P = V x I
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Those outputs are not the ratings. In the sales book, they call them 34, 37, and 50 amp alternators that year.
https://www.hamtramck-historical.co...lershipDataBook/1971/71_Valiant_Duster_20.jpg

The '73 Dodge FSM actually lists the rating with the new squarebacks.
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Notice they state current at the carbon pile attached to the battery is about 5 amps less than the output of the alternator. Where did the amps go? To power the ignition and the rotor. The current divided between the regular wiring and the test wiring.

Sometimes higher rated alternators do worse at low rpm. This is from a Delco catalog for 10 SI GM replacement.
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Depending on the pulley ratio, the '72 amp' alternator might be worse at idle and off idle than the '63 amp' alternator.
 
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Hmmmmmm. So do you have the relays and a diagram of how this should be done.

A. Basic concept with just a headlight relay. Considering most a-bodies only got 18 gage wiresfrom the hi/lo to the headlights, its a good one to do if driving a lot at night.
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Dan Stern has relay wiring diagrams on his website. He also sells good quality parts.
Crackedback sells a harness already made up that plugs into the existing headlight connectors. He might also sell you parts.

I made my own using marine fuse holders. I hate wet electrics. LOL But I think most folks use circuit breakers on the headlights.

B. Eliminating the Packard type terminals that carry high loads.
Chrysler had a few of doing this. Some years/models got different connectors at the firewall. '76 A-bodies got a main circuit wich divided the circuit in several places on the engine compartment side before coming through the connectors.
'73 - '74 and maybe others got power feeds through a grommet in the firewall if equiped with the high output alternator - rear defroster package.
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How rare is electric rear defrost?
 
I'd also like to know if it's possible to believe the printed power used by aftermarket ignition systems and let's say...fuel pumps?
IDK
One thing to look for is whether the output was rated at 12 Volts, 14 Volts or something between.
Most items will draw more current if provided a higher voltage power source.
That older mallory catalog I referenced in cudafever's thread shows a couple different voltage situations for their electric fuel pumps. Both running on battery and for running on a typical alternator.
 
Then you had fuel pumps, a water pump and maybe a tail light for night racing
When running extra electric stuff, that's when a different strategy should be considered. Especially if stuff is going to be running when the engine is off - like water pump and fans.
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'73 - '74 and maybe others got power feeds through a grommet in the firewall if equiped with the high output alternator - rear defroster package.
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How rare is electric rear defrost?

I've mentioned this a lot, commonly know as fleet/ police/ taxi option. I'm not sure if it was factory or dealer. ALSO DON'T FORGET that some of the Sea Barges had remote shunt ammeters. I meantioned that earlier. IF THIS STRATEGY HAD BEEN done correctly, it would have worked well. There are LOTS of applications where metering ws done with remote shunts. A good example of that is radio amateur (legal) RF amplifiers, with separate power supplies. The meter you see on the front panel is "some microamps" up to usually 1 ma (milliamp) It is ACTUALLY measuring anywhere from 1/2 to 5 amps full scale because of a shunt "down in the power supply"

The old (iconic) Drake L-4B is an example.........separate power supply, small delicate meter in the front panel, measuring a LOT more current through a remote mount shunt

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A. Basic concept with just a headlight relay. Considering most a-bodies only got 18 gage wiresfrom the hi/lo to the headlights, its a good one to do if driving a lot at night.
View attachment 1715462608
Dan Stern has relay wiring diagrams on his website. He also sells good quality parts.
Crackedback sells a harness already made up that plugs into the existing headlight connectors. He might also sell you parts.

I made my own using marine fuse holders. I hate wet electrics. LOL But I think most folks use circuit breakers on the headlights.

B. Eliminating the Packard type terminals that carry high loads.
Chrysler had a few of doing this. Some years/models got different connectors at the firewall. '76 A-bodies got a main circuit wich divided the circuit in several places on the engine compartment side before coming through the connectors.
'73 - '74 and maybe others got power feeds through a grommet in the firewall if equiped with the high output alternator - rear defroster package.
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How rare is electric rear defrost?


Ok, now I need to go find the file with the paper that has my VIN decode on it. I'm pretty sure my car has the rear defrost option. I'm not sure what the factory alternator was though.

Thanks for the great information.
 
if the car is handy, see where the fusible link connects.

if its in the bulkhead connector, that's standard
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if it leads to a grommet, prob above the master cylinder, then its the option.
 
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Matt, can you see the wire above the master cylinder in these pictures?

Is that the wire we are discussing??? If so, do I have the upgraded charging system??

TIA
 
View attachment 1715462870 View attachment 1715462871 Matt, can you see the wire above the master cylinder in these pictures?

Is that the wire we are discussing??? If so, do I have the upgraded charging system??

TIA
Doesn't look like it.
I don't know what that cable and grommet are for. ???
Looks like the fusible link connects through the multi-cavity bulkhead connector.
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This is @zkx14's '75 Duster. No rear window defrost grid. It's got a similar grommet, and another one. But we weren't sure what wires run through it. A is definately the circuit from the battery. With two fusible links, it could be something similar to what was implemented in '76, where power was divided on the engine compartment side, and a remote shunt used for the ammeter. Or it could be something else unrelated.
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optional grommet to the right of where the boosty goes on a '68 fury, done at some point between 68 and 2013 by PO.
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study slantsixdans, crackedbacks, and nacho RT / madd enterprises wiring mods. do exactly what they say. your electricals will be way way better.


try not to die -

- saylor
 
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