Another "Is Fuel Injection a Worthwhile Upgrade?" Question

Fuel and Air Systems

  1. harrisonm

    harrisonm Well-Known Member

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    I have come very close to pulling the trigger on a fuel injection unit several times. I have considered the Holley and Edelbrock units. I have decided against it each time because of the multitude of posts both here and other places where people who claim the are competent mechanics have had TROUBLE with them. I understand the potential advantages FI can offer, but what about all of these people with all of these problems?????
     
  2. RustyRatRod

    RustyRatRod I was born on a Monday. Not last Monday. FABO Gold Member

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    From what I've seen on the net and in person, no. I've seen Matt do conversions and on EVERY single one, when it leaves it's not 100% right. He tried to get me to look at a couple when I was there and I wouldn't do it. He thinks because he's done some LS conversions for himself, he knows enough to do it. He doesn't. Not knockin him, that's just the truth. In fact, one of the best ones that rolled outta there, I built. It was the 51 Chevy truck I put on the S/10 chassis with the 6.0 LS. I did all the hard work, wiring, the whole bit. It runs and drives, but it's STILL not 100%. Matt blamed it on the tuner.....and he may be right, but with EVERY dang one? Lemmie tell you something. We couldda done a carburetor conversion on that and I wouldda had it runnin slick as a button. I have no doubt.

    Now all this is what I've experienced, but I admit I am biased. I don't like EFI to begin with. I mean WTH should you have to basically become a computer programming and electronics genius, just to run aftermarket EFI, when you can slap on a carburetor and GO? Makes no sense to me.
     
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    • 72bluNblu

      72bluNblu FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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      Like everything else, it comes down to what you're doing with the car. For a car that most people will only use on the weekends during the summer, I don't think it makes much sense. Especially if you're decent at tuning a carburetor. You might see some benefits if you get the EFI set up properly, but for the cost and labor of converting over I don't think the EFI is going to pay dividends.

      I've gone back and forth a bunch, because I daily drive my Duster. It's my commuter. And the benefits of EFI- no warm up, no choke, better mileage, etc all make sense. Just like it does for most people with a modern commuter, there's a convenience of use there that you do not get with a carb. I'd rather not have a bunch of computer stuff on my car, I like my cars to be simple. Air/Fuel/Spark, piece of cake. No sensors or computers to worry about, if something isn't right you know where to start.

      But the EFI conversions have gotten a lot better. They're not perfect, but they're far better and easier to install/tune than just a few years ago. They don't require you to be a computer programmer to get them tuned right. For me, I think it's probably only a matter of time before I convert at least one of my cars over because of how I use them. If they were just my "fun" cars I doubt I'd even consider it. But when I go out to start my Duster to go to work when it's 38°F and raining I think having EFI will be a heck of a lot nicer.

      As for the "people with all these problems"- an EFI conversion is still a pretty involved process. And even some really small mistakes and oversights can cause big headaches. If you aren't a little computer savvy, and I don't mean programming, then the install can be problematic. Little, simple stuff like ground wires and proper voltages make a BIG difference. Like success and failure. Yeah, it's easy to blame the installer, but in most cases that's where a lot of the problems start. As much as improvements have been made, it's still a complicated installation. You have to install complex and sensitive sensors and computers properly on a car that was never designed to have any of that stuff. And aftermarket anything means some finagling on cars of this age.
       
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      • clementine

        clementine Flight risk FABO Gold Member

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        I am going with the Holley stealth, my buddy did the FAST 2.0. I am hoping for the best at this point. I think there is a learning curve like a lot of things that I find to be a bit daunting, but Im willing to risk it to see if I like it better. Im not made of money by no means but I have wasted money on worse things. If I end up going back to a carb.....oh well. Im pretty excited to see it work and hope it works well. After all.....its just rocket science.:lol:
         
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        • 70dart340

          70dart340 Well-Known Member

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          Since my 408 is in the machine shop right now, I'm watching this like a hawk. I can afford the EFI systems of today, but I don't want to trouble shoot everything under the hood with an O'scope and a 300 page tech manual.
           
        • Dartsun

          Dartsun Mopar Dude

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          My best buddy works at the local hot rod shop here in town. 3-4 years ago they’d install tons of FItech systems mostly on chevys and fords. I asked him the other day about it, he said thy don’t install any fuel injection systems like that anymore. To much hassle
           
          Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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          • 67 gt

            67 gt A Wog boy who loves his Mopars ! FABO Gold Member

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            I’ll just sit on the fence here ...:rolleyes:
             
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            • Blind Squirrel

              Blind Squirrel Well-Known Member

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              There is actually a Motor Trend (engine masters) "carb trumps EFI" somewhere out there. I swear I watched it. But now I can't find it.
               
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              • 70dart340

                70dart340 Well-Known Member

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                That's why I'm watching. I have a new QF750 DP annular carb I bought years ago for this motor, and an Edelbrock RPM manifold. I also bought an E-curve distributer 10 years ago. I'm getting old, and now it's time to put this motor together. I'm looking to put this together with the Trick Flow 190's with a solid roller cam, spec's not determined yet. I have a set of coated TTI's step headers for her. She's going in a '70 Swinger 340. I have all the number's matching motor set aside, with the build sheet. My 727 is rebuilt with a 2800 converter. I have the original 8 3/4 with 3.23 open, but I have another A body 742 rear I'm going to put 3.55 gears, and maybe an Auburn diff. I've been lurking for a while, but now retirment says BUILD it.
                 
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                • devilchicken

                  devilchicken FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                  Don't worry about "all these people with all these problems" they are not you and you have no way of knowing if what they are telling you is truth or fiction, It would be foolish to say all FI is garbage or all FI is the second coming of Jesus, do your research, call company's and ask all of the questions you have, even to nauseum if that is what it takes to feel comfortable about you purchase of there products and if at the end of the day your gut says yes/no then follow your gut. I used FItech on my scamp and I talked to there tech department every few days for a month asking all of the questions i had before I decided to pull the trigger. It took me another two weeks to install and that was due to me taking my time and installing everything right (IMO) checking and rechecking everything. Now I am happy with the results and guess what, I am still calling the tech department asking questions as I am still learning what the system has to offer. Good luck!!!!!
                   
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                  • my68barracuda

                    my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                    I have had a MegaSquirt MS3 Pro on the 68 Barracuda for nearly 5 years. I did all of the installation and the tuning. It has been 100% solid.
                    Concerning the comment about voltages, nothing difficult to accommodate to anyone familiar with wiring in relays. And yes the main grounds for the ecu and the air fuel meter need to go to the battery ground side.
                    As the FI system controls both the fuel and ignition side, I like having the ability to change the fuel map or ignition curve with a few key strokes on a lap top. The MS3 Pro also includes the ability to control electric engine fans, has a two step limiter, can interface with electronic transmissions to enable a unique ignition curve for each transmission gear, has a self tuning feature and has the ability to data log. And this is just touching the basic features. Some of the more involved controls include, if you had an AF meter on each cylinder one could run a unique fuel map for each cylinder.

                    Are after market FI systems for everyone? If you have good computer-electronic-mechanical skills and you understand the basic FI principles, it is just another feature of your car.
                    If you want your car to have the traditional fuel and ignition systems or are not comfortable with FI systems, you are probably better off staying with a carb.
                     
                    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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                    • 70dart340

                      70dart340 Well-Known Member

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                      I apolgise to all for hijacking this thread, but I'm getting to spend beau coup dough on my motor, and I'm listening to all points of view. Paul.
                       
                    • my68barracuda

                      my68barracuda Well-Known Member

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                      Concerning the comment in Post #8, either FI or a traditional carb can give excellent performance with the proper tune. The biggest advantage to FI is how quickly fuel and ignition maps can be adjusted to accommodate changes in atmospheric conditions including elevation. FI will do that as you motor down the road. A traditional carb - distributor cannot.
                       
                      Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
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                      • billsdartgt

                        billsdartgt FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                        I've had the Fitech on my 66 Mustang for a couple of years now - its pretty nice and I haven't had any issues beyond lack of knowledge. There is/was a thread on the Chevelle forums where it looked like every Fitech that was installed didn't work or had some issues, I believe with any new product that could be the case for many of those that posted but think a lot had to do with not starting off properly in the first place. IMO, one of the biggest problems with these kits is they are sold as bolt on and go and it will self learn, while there is some truth to that it really is not the case and says so in the instructions. The variables each car has creates a challenge as the number of parameters that can be adjusted are plentiful with each separate kit, and while many think they have great skills because they can tune a carb, that doesn't work as well with the computer tuning. I had to make a few adjustments on the Fitech to get stable readings on several things, since then no adjustments, gone through and had to do the same with the carbs. Someone with better skills could come along and adjust both right now and the Dart with the carb and my Mustang with FI would probably run better but they do OK for me and thats what matters. The 750 Holley I bought for the Dart was much cheaper than the full Fitech setup I have on the Mustang and I like both of them - if I have issues with either one I won't be bitc%&ng that one or the other sucks, it will just suck that I am having troubles. Good luck with your choice, I don't think you can go wrong either way, just be prepared to spend the time needed to get things dialed in no matter what direction you go.
                         
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                        • famous bob

                          famous bob mopar misfit

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                          Gotta say, I have had a fast 2.0 on my 505'' fastback for about 7ish yrs now , the only problems I`ve had (2) were self induced .
                          Great support from the guys at fast too !
                          Being able to tune from the drivers seat is the greatest thing since sliced bread ,and`t dont need no stinking computer .-------
                           
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                          • A56

                            A56 MoParAffliction FABO Gold Member

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                            Yeah and there's no worse feeling than having customers "come back" because of those problems.
                             
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                            • ChrisRomello

                              ChrisRomello Well-Known Member

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                              I scored a SUPER deal on a Holley Sniper EFI system from a guy who wanted to go back to a carb. He only started and ran it once but I guess he couldn’t figure out how to fine tune it. I’m doing the full conversion on my car with the hyperspark ignition system. The units come with a tuning screen to set up in the car and they will run and drive great with that, but if you want more out of it you can take it to a dyno and do even further tuning with it.
                               
                            • Ron816

                              Ron816 Well-Known Member

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                              I’m a purist carb only
                               
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                              • 6PakBee

                                6PakBee FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                I'm on the fence with aftermarket EFI also. But I look at the fact that all OEM's ditched carbs decades ago and now EFI is the standard fuel delivery system on everything and it works. There is definitely a gap between OEM offerings and aftermarket but I see the state of the art with aftermarket EFI advancing and the vendors getting the application of their systems to the point that there won't be problems.
                                 
                              • A56

                                A56 MoParAffliction FABO Gold Member

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                                Seems like one would have to rewire their cars to make the efi transition infallible.
                                 
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                                • 6PakBee

                                  6PakBee FABO Gold Member FABO Gold Member

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                                  That is probably for the most part true. What I foresee is aftermarket engine management systems that have EFI, anti-knock, and spark control all in one module. And yes, this would require more sensors and more wiring, no doubt about it.
                                   
                                • 67 gt

                                  67 gt A Wog boy who loves his Mopars ! FABO Gold Member

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                                  I’ve had the sniper for just over 2 years won’t go back to carburettor it’s just too good but you need to really take your time and plan your install. Really each to their own I suppose if you feel pretty comfortable with carburettors and just like the simplicity stay with what you know but with the FI theirs a bit more to it but really it’s making that transition and getting your head around it all .I’m still learning it as theres a lot you can do with them .what you read on forums with people having issues is a small percentage compare with how many units have been sold and the forums are just that to help others out who have experienced the same problems or know to do a certain change or adjustment to a particular running condition . The thing with these are if you have an exhaust leak or your engine is a little tired and it’s consuming oil you can get away with it running carburettors where as with FI it will let you know pretty quick as it will cause you grief. As it been mentioned it not for everyone and stick with what your comfortable with.
                                   
                                • goldduster318

                                  goldduster318 Overzealous Car Modifier

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                                  I've had megasquirt 3 pro on my Duster for 5 years now also. I went all the way with a crank sensor, coil near plug, sequential multi port, etc, and integrated it myself.

                                  I previously had a quick fuel annular 750 double pumper, and to be honest you can just drive the car now and there's no waiting for warm-up, and no weirdness based on weather. That always ran fine when the engine was actually warm. My engine will also pull from a lower RPM now. No worrying about the gas messing with the inside of the carb either.

                                  I have not had ANY trouble at all. I would say the only annoying thing about it is that the fuel pump doesn't have a check valve so it will loose prime overnight. So, the key has to be cycled at least twice to not get a start-stall. I should just run a momentary switch so I can just run the pump for 20 seconds or so then all would be good.

                                  If you want to win at an EFI conversion and have it be reliable, no matter what, you need an IN-TANK fuel pump with a return system where the regulator is AFTER the fuel rails. Your fuel will not boil off, you won't have fuel pressure issues, and your pump will actually last given that it's cooled by the gas AND can actually pick up fuel. It's also a lot quieter.

                                  I have the Aeromotive Phantom 340 LPH which is great other than the bleed down of the fuel pressure due to no pump check valve.
                                   
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                                  • pishta

                                    pishta I know I'm right....

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                                    There are plenty. Carbs dump fuel no matter what the motor wants via the accelerator pump. The motor basically catches up to the carb then it just pulls what it wants rich or not depending on the jetting. EFI has to catch up to the motor (in feedback loop mode), ie. you mash the gas, the MAP goes down, the car goes lean and the computer has to play catch up metering the injectors duty cycle to get it to stoich (or whatever the tune says) and this is an injector chasing the RPM scenario. Meanwhile the carbed motor is pulling away. Now this sampling happens in milliseconds but EFI are designed to be clean, metering the motor what it can burn. you can tell them to be rich at WOT past what they are supposed to be at but that is the tune not the EFI itself. Many WOT's go out to open loop and override the O2 feedback and now your tune better be spot on as its running blind, computing the RPM with the MAP to a table....keep an eye on the AF guage! Cold starts, emissions, ease of driving...it was an evolution of the carburetor to meet current emissions standards. Start an EFI in the -10 night and drive it away, try that with a choke in under 20 seconds. You cant really carb a motor with a supercharger on it and have it idle all day in traffic with the A/C on, and warranty it for 50K for any driveability issues like the current Hellcats, and Mustangs. High pressure pump is the easiest part. then its about 3-4 sensors and the TB (or MPFI injectors) go bank fire so its only a 2 channel system, no need for sequential-no performance gains there. Batch fire is just TBI closer to the valves as they all pulse at once. If you adapt the Ford EEC-IV with its mass air valve, it self tunes to a stock or slight cam. Lots of older 5.0's still running around with their original ECU's and stock tunes. IT doesnt care what its powering as long as the inputs line up. About half of them dont matter on the ECU plug, ie. transmission temp, what gear its in, A/C, seat belts, etc. Modern bolt ons dont have that stuff and are self tuning too nowadays. Good luck. TBI it and carry a carb and a fuel pressure regulator in the trunk if it makes you feel safer. Electronic stuff is getting better every year. reliability of a sensor on top of a vibrating 200F motor is something else. The old systems were erector sets compared to today's LEGOs in engineering and integration. I saw a surveillance hard drive today that had a MTBF of 1,000,000 hours, that's like 117 years.
                                     
                                    Last edited: Dec 31, 2020
                                  • 67 gt

                                    67 gt A Wog boy who loves his Mopars ! FABO Gold Member

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                                    Yeah I use the tanks inc tank with the Walbro 255 LPH in tank pump no issues mine bleeds down as well slowly but 1 prime only before firing .
                                     
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